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  1. #1
    Junior Member stevo86's Avatar
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    fuel

    Has any one used leaded gas I know my owners manual said not to iv put 110 cam2 mixed about 10℅ to 90℅ 93 ethanol free gas in all of my previous dirt bikes and had no problems was wanting to know what it will hurt or damage in the tws engine

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    Should be OK - but what's the point - these things will run on anything

    Try and keep it on ethanol free - but beyond that, anything goes ........
    (Warning - Forum may contain nuts) ...... Hidden Content

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  3. #3
    Junior Member stevo86's Avatar
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    I was acculy wondering what will it hurt as the owners manual claimed or is it just some California nonsense

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  5. #4
    Senior Member GaryL's Avatar
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    Interesting question because if I am correct which I might not be, the only place to get leaded-non ethanol fuel these days is at an airport and usually a much higher octane like 93-95. Lead was an additive years ago and the purpose was as an added lubricant for the valve guides. Almost all road fuels went to unleaded many years ago and most road fuel now contains 10% ethanol unless you can find non ethanol in your area. I advocate staying as far away from ethanol as possible in your TW and all small engines and marine engines. I have not seen leaded fuel in years but guys with high performance muscle cars do still find a source or they buy lead as an additive. IMO the higher octane fuels require a much higher compression to be of any real value so I would avoid them in our TWs.

    GaryL
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  6. #5
    Junior Member stevo86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryL View Post
    Interesting question because if I am correct which I might not be, the only place to get leaded-non ethanol fuel these days is at an airport and usually a much higher octane like 93-95. Lead was an additive years ago and the purpose was as an added lubricant for the valve guides. Almost all road fuels went to unleaded many years ago and most road fuel now contains 10% ethanol unless you can find non ethanol in your area. I advocate staying as far away from ethanol as possible in your TW and all small engines and marine engines. I have not seen leaded fuel in years but guys with high performance muscle cars do still find a source or they buy lead as an additive. IMO the higher octane fuels require a much higher compression to be of any real value so I would avoid them in our TWs.

    GaryL
    Avgas is acculy any where from 100 to 130 depending on the mix cam 2 is 110 and leaded they sell it at one stop right down the road from my house thanks for the reply I will probably stay away from it till my warrante runs out

  7. #6
    Senior Member JustPassinThru's Avatar
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    Is there a catalyst in the exhaust system?

    And if not...why even bother, anyway? Lead fouls the plugs and builds up in the combustion chamber. The advantages of tetraethyl lead in gasoline were twofold: First, boost octane; and second, lubricate the exhaust valve. Modern engines have hardened exhaust-valve seats and other changes which remove the problem there - we've been directed to use no-lead for 35 years. And we have premium gas without tetraethyl lead. Meantime, we get ten times the service out of plugs that we used to get.

    I'd say, NO.
    elime and grewen like this.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Fred's Avatar
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    The lead was banned from conventional vehicle fuels primarily due to it's being an environmental toxin. As such I believe using it in a motorcycle on public roads violates both the intent and letter of the law in the United States.
    grewen likes this.
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  9. #8
    Senior Member JustPassinThru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred View Post
    The lead was banned from conventional vehicle fuels primarily due to it's being an environmental toxin. As such I believe using it in a motorcycle on public roads violates both the intent and letter of the law in the United States.
    Mostly it was banned because it destroys a vehicle's catalytic converter. Which all cars and most motorcycles have today.

  10. #9
    DKV
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    I read this after trying 87,89,91,93 lead and alcohol free and 100LL and 108 cam 2 .
    Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...

    My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.

    Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.

    In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.

    The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.

    AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.

    AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.

    I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.

    Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.

    Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.

    You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.

    The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.

    AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.

    Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.

    AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.

    Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.

    Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.

    Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.

    I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.

    Good Luck,
    Steve Poole
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  11. #10
    Senior Member elime's Avatar
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    A couple of years back I bought 5 gallons of AvGas, 100LL I think, at the local airport. I couldn't tell any difference the way my TW ran but my garage did smell like a Cessna. Personally, I prefer the smell of regular pump gas -- regular as in automobile gas.
    Long live the internal combustion engine!

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