Improvements For New Model TW200s
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  1. #1
    Member TundraManDan's Avatar
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    Good Morning,



    I have not owned one long but so far this is what I would like to see in the next new model:



    1. 6 speed transmission with 1st - 5th the same as now and a wide gap between 5th and 6th. A 58T rear sprocket. Then the TW would have a wider range for off road and highway. 6th would be a little higher than the overall ratio for the current 5th. - perhaps like the 47T sprocket that some prefer to cut down the cruising RPM



    2. Tubless tires and rims with good beads and just as big as the current tires so you can run low pressure and also just carry a plug gun and pump. Softer more flexible tires. I had a 500 single road bike once that was lightweight and my wife did some mild off road. We would let some air out of the tubless tires and they were great. Those who prefer tubes could always add one.



    3. The foot pegs back an inch or two to take some weight off the front. The TW sort of slams over obstacles since difficult to unload the front weight. Perhaps 1 more inch of travel to soften the 1st inch a bit.



    4. Some weight reducing effort where it does not reduce strength or comfort. No weight gain.



    That is about it for me.



    T-Dan

  2. #2
    Senior Member lizrdbrth's Avatar
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    Straddle your bike and look down. You'll find that your right peg is further forward than the left. Could be a factor in your lack of joy in the peg placement, as well. Kinda feels funky in a way you can't put your finger on because the stagger isn't obvious unless it's pointed out, but it's close to an inch.



    The 6-speed and 25 more cc's could have been done at any point with existing XT and TTR parts already in production. I'd be dazzled with that, but even when Yamaha did produce a TW225 for the Japanese market they stuck with the 5-speed. Go figger.



    There is mucho wrong with this bike but most of it is correctable. Be careful what you wish for, or Yamaha will build it in the image of their XTW250 concept bike, which is built in the image of a Super Tenere, and so on.



    Flavor of the week. Wrong way to go, but they may take it there. We'll see.



    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

    Powdercoated '87 frame, extended swingarm, YZ fork legs, ATV tire, 14/55, XT350 tank, spliced quick-release seat, disc brake conversion, beeg headlight, beeger rack, Lizrdcooler, Lizrdventz and bunch of other stuff all covered in invisible ink.

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  3. #3
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    Be careful of what you ask. Tubeless tires and spokes are still an iffy proposition for offroad use. Many "adventure bikes" wear tubeless tires, but they rarely see much difficult offroad terrain. Most never see anything much rougher than a dirt road. Mag wheels lack the flexibility offroad of spoked wheels and are prone to cracking and breaking, especially when aired down for offroad use. I've seen several adventure bikes develop hairline cracks in their tubeless wheels. One ride I lent my spare tube and tire tools to a rider who cracked a rim with a tubeless tire. Plugs won't do much good with a cracked rim. Until some new tubeless technology that fits comes along, I'll stick to tubes.



    Adding 25cc to the stock TW clutch is asking for trouble. The stock clutch is barely adequate for 200cc.



    Dropping highway rpm certainly reduces vibration, but your proposed displacement increase will put it right back. There are other proven techniques for reducing vibration that work well, such as better grips and different handlebar material. The stock overall drive ratio is still too high for a TW200 to pull, anyway, and adding displacement, all else being equal, will drop the powerband down the rpm range enough to make the problem worse. It would probably be necessary to raise the final drive ratio a bit to return the powerband to the desired highway road speed. One could also fit a bigger carb and more radical cam to raise the powerband.



    The rpm drops between the top 3 gears on the TW trans are nearly excessive. Many times up hill and/or at altitude I've wound up 3rd or 4th, shifted up, and found the bike unable to maintain speed because the rpm drop takes the engine below the powerband. Yamaha took the TW gaps as far as practical to provide a low 1st and still preserve some modicum of commuter ability. The engine simply won't pull a wider gap. I'm not sure an extra 25cc would remedy the situation completely, but it would certainly help, especially if a bigger carb and more radical cam came along for the ride. The XT and TT-R transmissions are significantly more progressive than the TW trans.



    The XT rpm drops between gears are 54.6%, 40.0%, 27.0%, 21.5%, and 16.8%.

    The TT-R rpm drops between gears are 54.7%, 32.2%, 27.0%, 21.5%, and 16.8%.

    The TW rpm drops between gears are 58.4%, 35.7%, 26.7%, and and 26.7%.



    The TW 5th is 0.821:1, and the primary drive is 3.32:1, for a combined 2.725:1 reduction. The XT/TT-R 6th is 0.793, and the primary drive is 3.27:1, for a combined 2.59:1 reduction. Simply dropping the XT/TT-R 6-speed and clutch into a TW with stock countershaft and wheel sprockets will result in just about a 5% reduction in engine rpm in top gear. Not quite the 3-teeth equivalent you were looking for, but close, and the swap fixes the clutch issue with added power. First gear using the XT trans will be about 4% lower than the stock TW 1st, too, so you do get a little on each end. The TT-R trans will fall somewhere between the two. More info on the various transmissions here: https://tw200forum.com/index.php?/top...procket-shaft/



    As for moving the footpegs back, no thanks. Footpeg location is a personal preference, mainly for comfort. Actual location has next to nothing to do with lofting the front wheel. Really, moving your feet back won't make much difference, as your feet weigh little and the weight is low, so very little leverage is available. Move your butt backwards, and the front wheel becomes very light, indeed. Tdub has no problem lofting the front wheel in the lower three gears if I do my part. Maybe you could practice some riding techniques such as using a small bump or the brakes to load the springs, then take advantage of the rebound by adding a bit of weight transfer.



    An inch of suspension travel could help with ride quality, but at the expense of seat height. If your TW front end slams into obstacles, slide your butt back. Really, it's that easy. Just be aware that with your butt slid back, that fat front tire won't dig in very well and will be more likely to wash out.



    Just my opinion, but I think your problems with your TW's handling just might come from the relatively heavy unsprung masses at the ends of the suspension components. Those do require that TWs be ridden a bit differently than bikes with conventional tire sizes. Throw a little more body English into your TW than you're used to with other bikes and you'll likely find your planned mods aren't really all that necessary.




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  5. #4
    Member TundraManDan's Avatar
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    Hi,



    - That is good information regarding tubless tires. I thought the spokes were for less weight and did not realize there was a problem with the strength of tubeless wheels - good point - just a real pain if you get a flat but I'm guessing you may be able to limp out flat.



    - I don't see any need to change the motor - 200cc is perfect for my focus - mainly off road. My focus is not on top highway speed but of course that too is important for a dual purpose bike.



    - Don't want a bigger carb - stick with the small one for smooth at low rpm due to higher air velocity.



    - On the 6th speed all I'm suggesting is to be able to have the same highway capability but a lower 1st gear so that you do not have to swap sprockets or go to a dual sprocket setup for better off road capability. As far as 5th gear being maxed out that also depends on the altitude and weight of the rider.



    - "Actual location has next to nothing to do with lofting the front wheel". Simply not true. Take a close look at the peg position on a trials bike. I'm not saying I cannot get the front end up - just that it is way more work than my old style trials bike (1987 Reflex) that a TW could not begin to follow in the really rough stuff. I just measured and the TW pegs are 8" further forward relative to the rear wheel position than the Reflex. On the Reflex, the pegs are even with the front of the rear tire.



    - My experience is that a light front end washes out less based on comparing the Reflex to the TW and the XR650L. But I can't say when going fast into a highway corner - talking about off-road only.



    - Yep, loading (pushing down hard on the bars) and then unloading the suspension with a pull up on the bars and a weight shift to the back. With the reflex you can load both front and back suspensions and jump over an 8" log with out touching it with either wheel. But, you cannot carry two people on the Reflex and they only made them for two years when Honda dumped the last of their trials bikes on the US market.



    However, I'm not trying to be critical of the TW - only suggesting some potential minor improvements. After all, it is a "dual purpose" bike and a very nice compromise between the two needs. I don't expect it to perform the same as my trials bike off road as I have it for a different purpose. I really like the TDub and it seems rock solid reliable.



    Attached are 3 pictures of going over spring snow drifts this year on the Reflex. The drifts are soft on the edges where they are shallow and firmer in the middle. So, you load and then unload the front to get the front tire up and then unload the rear to get it up and slowly crawl over the drift so as to not break through. It will be fun to give the TW a try in the drifts next year with the big tires. The XR650L with all of its power was useless when attempting to go over 3-5 foot deep spring snow drifts - always fell through and was heavy to lift out. That is a 510:18 on the rear of the Reflex and a 325:21 on the front which helps the little 200 pound 6 speed bike.





    Dan















    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty View Post
    Be careful of what you ask. Tubeless tires and spokes are still an iffy proposition for offroad use. Many "adventure bikes" wear tubeless tires, but they rarely see much difficult offroad terrain. Most never see anything much rougher than a dirt road. Mag wheels lack the flexibility offroad of spoked wheels and are prone to cracking and breaking, especially when aired down for offroad use. I've seen several adventure bikes develop hairline cracks in their tubeless wheels. One ride I lent my spare tube and tire tools to a rider who cracked a rim with a tubeless tire. Plugs won't do much good with a cracked rim. Until some new tubeless technology that fits comes along, I'll stick to tubes.



    Adding 25cc to the stock TW clutch is asking for trouble. The stock clutch is barely adequate for 200cc.



    Dropping highway rpm certainly reduces vibration, but your proposed displacement increase will put it right back. There are other proven techniques for reducing vibration that work well, such as better grips and different handlebar material. The stock overall drive ratio is still too high for a TW200 to pull, anyway, and adding displacement, all else being equal, will drop the powerband down the rpm range enough to make the problem worse. It would probably be necessary to raise the final drive ratio a bit to return the powerband to the desired highway road speed. One could also fit a bigger carb and more radical cam to raise the powerband.



    The rpm drops between the top 3 gears on the TW trans are nearly excessive. Many times up hill and/or at altitude I've wound up 3rd or 4th, shifted up, and found the bike unable to maintain speed because the rpm drop takes the engine below the powerband. Yamaha took the TW gaps as far as practical to provide a low 1st and still preserve some modicum of commuter ability. The engine simply won't pull a wider gap. I'm not sure an extra 25cc would remedy the situation completely, but it would certainly help, especially if a bigger carb and more radical cam came along for the ride. The XT and TT-R transmissions are significantly more progressive than the TW trans.



    The XT rpm drops between gears are 54.6%, 40.0%, 27.0%, 21.5%, and 16.8%.

    The TT-R rpm drops between gears are 54.7%, 32.2%, 27.0%, 21.5%, and 16.8%.

    The TW rpm drops between gears are 58.4%, 35.7%, 26.7%, and and 26.7%.



    The TW 5th is 0.821:1, and the primary drive is 3.32:1, for a combined 2.725:1 reduction. The XT/TT-R 6th is 0.793, and the primary drive is 3.27:1, for a combined 2.59:1 reduction. Simply dropping the XT/TT-R 6-speed and clutch into a TW with stock countershaft and wheel sprockets will result in just about a 5% reduction in engine rpm in top gear. Not quite the 3-teeth equivalent you were looking for, but close, and the swap fixes the clutch issue with added power. First gear using the XT trans will be about 4% lower than the stock TW 1st, too, so you do get a little on each end. The TT-R trans will fall somewhere between the two. More info on the various transmissions here: https://tw200forum.com/index.php?/top...procket-shaft/



    As for moving the footpegs back, no thanks. Footpeg location is a personal preference, mainly for comfort. Actual location has next to nothing to do with lofting the front wheel. Really, moving your feet back won't make much difference, as your feet weigh little and the weight is low, so very little leverage is available. Move your butt backwards, and the front wheel becomes very light, indeed. Tdub has no problem lofting the front wheel in the lower three gears if I do my part. Maybe you could practice some riding techniques such as using a small bump or the brakes to load the springs, then take advantage of the rebound by adding a bit of weight transfer.



    An inch of suspension travel could help with ride quality, but at the expense of seat height. If your TW front end slams into obstacles, slide your butt back. Really, it's that easy. Just be aware that with your butt slid back, that fat front tire won't dig in very well and will be more likely to wash out.



    Just my opinion, but I think your problems with your TW's handling just might come from the relatively heavy unsprung masses at the ends of the suspension components. Those do require that TWs be ridden a bit differently than bikes with conventional tire sizes. Throw a little more body English into your TW than you're used to with other bikes and you'll likely find your planned mods aren't really all that necessary.

  6. #5
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    So, you compare a TW to a Reflex as reasoning for relocating the pegs?







































































    BWAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA!!!!



    Sorry. Since you put fatter tires on the Reflex, you deserve forgiveness. I've ridden several trials bikes with fat knobbies over the years. Wicked trail cruising fun.




  7. #6
    Senior Member TdubOhio's Avatar
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    I just want the turn signal to do the "clickety" thing so I quit leaving it on all the time.

    I'm pretty sure they had that technology in 1987.

    My freakin 50cc Zuma had it...

    Just sayin'.

  8. #7
    Senior Member mekdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TdubOhio View Post
    I just want the turn signal to do the "clickety" thing so I quit leaving it on all the time.

    I'm pretty sure they had that technology in 1987.

    My freakin 50cc Zuma had it...

    Just sayin'.




    I do that too.
    You never know what you can do until you have to undo something you have done.

  9. #8
    Senior Member DRF64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekdad View Post
    I do that too.




    do the kids on crotch rockets laugh and flip you the bird for doing that, or is it just me?





    Back to OP's suggestions, I would in theory like a higher gear, but I would agree it just doesn't work.



    As to the foot pegs, I suggest you try risers on the bars and then sit your butt back further on the seat when you do street riding. worked wonders for me.





    dan

  10. #9
    Senior Member gfletcb's Avatar
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    I want a hi-lo sub tranny

  11. #10
    Senior Member DRF64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfl View Post
    I want a hi-lo sub tranny




    This is another thing tha sounds cool but in practice doesn't live up to the expectations. I have yet to hear one DOHC Honda user say they really liked it. Any one know of someone who loves it on another bike?

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