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Thread: non ethanol

  1. #1
    Senior Member greendub's Avatar
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    My local station just started selling 91 octane non ethanol. I had to fiddle a lot with the carb after they switched to ethanol 87 last year. Anyone have any ideas on which will run better? Going to top it off with the non today and see how she runs. Got a long wot run lets see if I notice a difference.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Xracer's Avatar
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    My Dub would ping in the summer heat running 87 ethanol fuel. Now I'm running 91 non-ethanol " Boat Gas" with no problems. The same stuff I run in all my lawn mowers and weed wackers. I've also yet to foul a plug on anything.

  3. #3
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    Non-ethanol is better in the long run. In cold weather, high octane E0 may cause a loss of power, but not nearly so much as ethanol contamination. It might also cause a slight hesitation when rolling the throttle back on after engine braking at high speed, say, tooling along at 60, rolling the throttle closed to slow to 50, then whacking the throttle open again. Both issues result from the condensation of fuel vapor from compression in the lower part of the combustion chamber. Neither condition is harmful to the engine, and the 15-20% more power and better efficiency the engine provides under every other operating condition along with superior resistance to pre-ignition way more than compensates.



    If your TW pings with 87 (R+M)/2 E0, either your carb is to lean, your rpms are too low, or your engine is too hot.




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  5. #4
    Senior Member Guitarman's Avatar
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    No E0 in the 87 octane grade up here in my part of the world.



    So I found a gas station that sells E0 91. Since I'll probably never be able to compare E0 87 and E0 91, the last one is what works best for me.

  6. #5
    Junior Member teedub200's Avatar
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    Have run about 3 tanks of non-ethanol gas now and noticed that I need very little or no choke to start the engine when cold. Don't know for sure that the non-ethanol made that happen but it has happened. Maybe its the heat of summer making it easier to start. Got TeeDub last December so I guess thats possible too.
    2009 TW200

  7. #6
    Junior Member okarmygrunt's Avatar
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    Its remarkably difficult to find Non-Ethanol here in my part of Oklahoma. So that could explain my hesitant performance when just running plain 87 ethanol fuel. BUT I put any kind of fuel additive in it (such as Lucas) and it clears right up and runs like a champ. Now I know.

  8. #7
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    Seth, your fuel additive is probably--wait for it--ethanol or methanol. Better check the MSDS online and find out with what you are poisoning your TW.



    Per unit of volume, ethanol has only about 5/8 the energy as gasoline. Therefore, it is physically impossible for E10 to provide any more than 93.75% of the power and efficiency of gasoline, and that is assuming that the ethanol burns in the gasoline engine at the same efficiency as gasoline, which it doesn't. Ethanol requires about 4.5 points higher compression ratio, about 10 degrees more ignition advance, and about 37.75% richer fuel mixture than gasoline to burn efficiently. Therefore, if the ethanol burns at half the efficiency of gasoline, you're lucky, and your net is 90.625% the energy output of gasoline. Also, since ethanol and gasoline do not mix, a chemical must be used to make them stay mixed, and the chemical does not burn, so its presence reduces the total amount of fuel in the mixture. There are 36 chemicals approved for improving miscibility, and they compose 8-33% of the final mixture. Some of these chemicals actually provide some energy value to the fuel, but much less than ethanol. Miscibility additives with energy value generally require higher concentrations to be effective. Miscibility additives that do not provide energy vaslue tend to require 12-18% concentrations. Miscibility additives that work with low concentrations actually inhibit combustion of gasoline and ethanol. Result is the best any miscibility additive can do is an additional 4.5% drop in efficiency, most are worse. Some significantly worse. When it's all said and done, it is physically impossible for E10 to provide more than 11 or so % of the power and efficiency of E0, in an engine tuned for gasoline, even if the air:fuel ratio is properly adjusted to compensate for the change in formulation. In practice, the real power and efficiency loss runs 17-23% in most vehicles, and can easily exceed 40%, depending on the particular circumstances.



    Them's the facts. Like it or not.




  9. #8
    Senior Member TK200's Avatar
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    So is it better to run E10 or not?

  10. #9
    Banned qwerty's Avatar
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    Post #3, first sentence.




  11. #10
    Senior Member Matojo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty View Post
    Seth, your fuel additive is probably--wait for it--ethanol or methanol. Better check the MSDS online and find out with what you are poisoning your TW.



    Per unit of volume, ethanol has only about 5/8 the energy as gasoline. Therefore, it is physically impossible for E10 to provide any more than 93.75% of the power and efficiency of gasoline, and that is assuming that the ethanol burns in the gasoline engine at the same efficiency as gasoline, which it doesn't. Ethanol requires about 4.5 points higher compression ratio, about 10 degrees more ignition advance, and about 37.75% richer fuel mixture than gasoline to burn efficiently. Therefore, if the ethanol burns at half the efficiency of gasoline, you're lucky, and your net is 90.625% the energy output of gasoline. Also, since ethanol and gasoline do not mix, a chemical must be used to make them stay mixed, and the chemical does not burn, so its presence reduces the total amount of fuel in the mixture. There are 36 chemicals approved for improving miscibility, and they compose 8-33% of the final mixture. Some of these chemicals actually provide some energy value to the fuel, but much less than ethanol. Miscibility additives with energy value generally require higher concentrations to be effective. Miscibility additives that do not provide energy vaslue tend to require 12-18% concentrations. Miscibility additives that work with low concentrations actually inhibit combustion of gasoline and ethanol. Result is the best any miscibility additive can do is an additional 4.5% drop in efficiency, most are worse. Some significantly worse. When it's all said and done, it is physically impossible for E10 to provide more than 11 or so % of the power and efficiency of E0, in an engine tuned for gasoline, even if the air:fuel ratio is properly adjusted to compensate for the change in formulation. In practice, the real power and efficiency loss runs 17-23% in most vehicles, and can easily exceed 40%, depending on the particular circumstances.



    Them's the facts. Like it or not.
    So Qwery,last thursday 1/4 of mile into my ride to work have to swich to reserve (E10),about 3 miles down the road I stop and fill the tank with some real gas. What is going on inside my tank now?

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