Facebook rant on animals, religion, etc. (read if you're bored, I guess)...
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    Senior Member kj7687's Avatar
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    Post Facebook rant on animals... (read if you're bored, I guess)...

    EDIT: Sigh...okay, my post was reasonable/legit/etc, but it did have some minor religious references. I took those out, so hopefully it's all good now... I need to just start writing books or something; I need a proper channel for all my thoughts and rants and opinions and all of that.



    DOG MEAT versus PIG MEAT
    There is no real distinction between eating pigs or cows, or eating dogs or cats, except that different people tend to place different sets of values on different animals. Most Westerners are only appalled by the notion of eating dogs because they tend to place higher emotional/practical values on dogs (...what these animals can do for people: pets, guards, pest control...). It is easy to be extremely hypocritical in this regard without realizing it, because we are all, to some extent, products of our cultures, whether we like it or not. Still, people should think about such matters on a deeper level, and try to avoid knee-jerk reactions. It's one thing to be vegetarian and argue for avoiding all animal-flesh consumption (essentially, saying that all animals always carry a higher value than their nutritional value), but it just doesn't seem reasonable to campaign against dog-meat consumption while chowing down on a hamburger and bacon-cheddar fries. I don't have an answer for all of this, at all...but it's something to think about, and to not oversimplify or be hypocritical about.






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    Kj Lindsted Warning: this film (relating to my post, above) is not pleasant -- graphic and disturbing images abound; it illustrates some uncomfortable (for many) facts about human interactions with animals. The film does contain some notable logical fallacies and false claims (for example, that humans are the only creatures who intentionally inflict pain for pleasure, or that "the value of animals is reduceable to their value relative to human interests" is erroneous -- in fact the very notion of other animals having value to humans is an anthropocentric notion, having no intrinsic, completely non-human "perfect standard" -- i.e. we can't really say whether the quoted words here are erroneous or not, because we only understand animals, and any concept of any sort of value that can be tied to them, in HUMAN terms...we can't truly judge anything by any reason other than our own), but overall seems largely fact-based, and is certainly thought-provoking. There is often a very fine line between what is seen as "right" and "good", and what is seen as horrifying and foul beyond the sickest imagination.https://123movies.io/movie/earthlings-21538/watching.htmlManage




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    Kj Lindsted This article also goes well with this topic (seeming to debunk the notion that plants suffer in the same way animals do, although granted, this is just one article, and I have NOT extensively researched that particular topic): https://www.livekindly.co/plants-feel-pain/ . Honestly, a similar conclusion could probably be reached by performing a simple (though perhaps unethical) experiment: take a group of two to five year old children out to pick flowers, then take them to a slaughterhouse to watch pigs' throats get slit while they hang upside-down from sharp hooks; observe and record their reactions to each scenario (children are much more aware and intelligent than we often give them credit for being, but of course, such an experiment would likely be quite flawed, because even at those ages, children will have already experienced significant cultural indoctrination, which will have impacted their frames-of-reference, thereby shifting their reactions one way or another). God damn...no one fuckin even reads this shit. I feel like I'm just sitting here organizing my thoughts. This may as well be on a notepad. Maybe I should start a blog or something instead of thinking with my keyboard on Facebook. Merry fuckin Christmas, if anyone actually reads this deranged little rant.Manage




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    Kj Lindsted I've sometimes pondered if human life on Earth could be some sort of factory-farm (a-la the Wraith in "Stargate") or a clinical test administered by some greater being(s) or other human(s) in a position of total dominance, similar to the real situations depicted toward the end of "Earthlings". Would we know any better? I don't think that we would. Newborn pigs stuffed into crates must assume that their situation is just life -- the way things are, because they have never known anything else, right? And humans on Earth? If that were the case (Earth being the pig-crate, metaphorically speaking)... Maybe life as we know it is NOT the norm for humans; maybe it's not supposed to be all fucked up and riddled with all kinds of problems. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that pigs cannibalizing other pigs, starting from the other pigs' anuses, is not normal pig behavior...














    Last edited by kj7687; 12-26-2017 at 12:59 PM. Reason: inadvertently broke a forum rule? fixed now, I think.
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    Senior Member Dryden-Tdub's Avatar
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    You sound similar to my 25 year old son. Very similar. I guess your writings depict your perceived reality and I am sure that there are many who share your thoughts. The question is what are you doing to change peoples hearts and minds? Or are you just fatalistic and allowing the chips to fall where they may? An awful lot of good in this world should you decide to search that out instead.



    Tom
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    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    KJ - you make a fair point few would dare to talk about

    We live in a world where perceived injustice is over-ridden by so many different things according to your culture, and culture is something you learn, and not the innocence you were born with

    There are more contradictions than you can shake a stick at, most of them born of "need", but then even those are often taken to extremes

    But the issue is not just on the human side - often nature can be pretty cruel (if you choose to see it that way) - from animals to storms

    We live on a violent planet, but maybe it's the curse of man to be the only living thing to have a conscience ............

    How was you Christmas Turkey by the way ?
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    Senior Member Rider21's Avatar
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    Purple, you said a mouthful there.
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    Senior Member kj7687's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dryden-Tdub View Post
    You sound similar to my 25 year old son. Very similar. I guess your writings depict your perceived reality and I am sure that there are many who share your thoughts. The question is what are you doing to change peoples hearts and minds? Or are you just fatalistic and allowing the chips to fall where they may? An awful lot of good in this world should you decide to search that out instead.



    Tom
    You pose difficult questions, Tom. I have in fact considered these questions quite a bit, and also the larger implications of similar logic applied to...other situations. My answers to both of your questions would be pretty complicated -- coming from someone who was raised vegetarian, but who has also been omnivorous (briefly tried strict veganism). The most honest answer at this point in my life, would be that I'm just not sure. I feel that it's easy to be torn in different directions (for example, I appreciate animal rescue videos on YouTube, but wonder if it doesn't make me hypocritical to both watch a video like that and eat a cheeseburger...OR is it just the way things are, and okay to enjoy BOTH the flavor of my cheeseburger and the pleasure of seeing a helpless street dog rescued and given a happy dog-life). I think that it does ultimately come down to either letting the chips fall as they may, or deciding to take a hard-line stance and defend it (doing what one can to change circumstances and the minds of others). I like to think of myself as highly logical, but this, for me, is a challenging thing to think about in that way, partly because emotions can, I would say, be considered as one of a number of logical factors (eg. people liking certain animals for companionship = largely emotion-based; companionship-value is one legitimate factor to consider). It is hard for me to say that I don't have a fully-formed opinion/perspective on this matter, and may never, but that is just the honest truth right now. It's sort of like solving a Rubix cube. I've fooled with them a little (was doing so yesterday evening for a little), but have never solved the puzzle (I know that I could just look it up, but for me that defeats the purpose), nor have I truly applied myself fully to the pursuit. A big part of the issue is whether to be vegetarian/vegan or not (ideally, I would like to choose one way or another, definitively, and then accord myself by whatever conclusion I reach, but I fear that is easier said than done). Even if one is vegan, there is still the issue of exercising power/dominance by spaying/neutering/euthanizing stray animals that no one has the time/money/drive to properly care for, or killing them, or just ignoring them and letting fate sort it out (this raises the debate about whether people should or should not care for animals -- in and of itself, intervening in any way can have implications which ultimately lead to animals living and dying... --kind of a babies-on-train-tracks dilemma, but with other animals). Sigh...these things do weigh heavily on me.

    Purple: no turkey, but I understand your point. You also make a good point about this being a violent planet, and I think that may be central to a logical consideration of this topic... I did make and eat some very delicious chocolate-butterscotch fudge...

    Merry Christmas to you guys, seriously
    Last edited by kj7687; 12-26-2017 at 12:57 PM.
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    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    Being human does not necessitate being logical - it's OK to care .....
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    Senior Member Trail Woman's Avatar
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    The world is far from black and white. Often there is no right answer. Pondering the meaning of it all can give you a greater appreciation for the complexities of life.

    I've always appreciated the hunter who respects their prey by challenging themselves in the hunt and takes a moment to honor the life they've taken.

    Or the farmer who gives their livestock a higher quality of life before they meet the chopping block.

    Either of which I kind of respect more then the masses who are disassociated with where their meat came from.

    Then again most plants are more defenseless then animals...does their life have less value? More food for thought.

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    Senior Member SHAG's Avatar
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    Facebook rant on animals... (read if you're bored, I guess)...

    Didn't read... Not bored.....
    Go like hell, You'll get there quicker!

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    Senior Member Fred's Avatar
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    Introspection throughout life is healthy, do not take the world as explained to you for granted. Find your own path, your own truths.
    All lifeforms exist at the expense of others. Even the lowliest plants wage chemical and physical warfare in competition for sustenance and survival. Guilt for striving to survive by whatever path is unnecessary.
    If in doubt as to what God, nature, moral or health concerns indicate what to eat simply look at your teeth. We are omnivores, those canine teeth didn't evolve to shred carrots.
    Besides as an old cynical T-Shirt from a BBQ restaurant states: "If God didn't want us to eat meat why did he make it taste so good?"

    This morning's does and yearlings look rather tasty to me, organic with no hormones or GMO feedstock. They enter winter fat and healthy yet cold, cougars, coyotes, bears and Buicks will take their toll. Some hunters and poachers will harvest others yet their natural life cycle continues. Genetic survival is the ultimate victory.Deer 12:27:17.jpg
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    Senior Member kj7687's Avatar
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    Fred: I do appreciate your input, and you make some good points; I just don't buy the "because it tastes good" argument. Cannibals say that human flesh tastes good. Child rapists say that sex with children feels good. Now, I am not trying to equate those things directly with non-human animal-flesh consumption (simply using other examples of that type of argument ["I do it because I like it, and it must be okay, because it feels good to me"] to show why I feel it is not a strong argument -- and I understand that the way you presented it may well not have been as a legitimate argument at all). I do indeed strive to find my own path, as I suppose we all must if we wish to survive.
    Last edited by kj7687; 12-27-2017 at 06:53 PM.
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