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Thread: Battery vs Jump Pack

  1. #1
    Senior Member BRug14468's Avatar
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    Battery vs Jump Pack

    I am currently planning out hollowing out my bike and have been trying to do my homework as to the work and options that are involved with this project. One step of a hollow bike is to either relocate the battery, relocate and replace with a smaller battery or run capacitors. This got me to thinking.

    With the popularity and power of small handheld jump packs on the rise, why not try to incorporate one versus the alternatives? I'm considering fabbing up a small weather proof compartment of sorts to keep it safe while on the bike. Maybe a pocket of some sort in the rear of the seat, and installing a pigtail off the battery cables for easy install/removal. I can think of two problems that may arise with this project.

    1. I'm not sure how a jump pack would react to being used as a battery in the fact that it would be receiving a charge while left hooked up. I figure a small toggle switch could remedy any complications. Or if there would be a way to wire in a diode to keep unwanted current out. I'm no electrical wizard so I'm not sure how option two might play out.

    2. Forgetting to charge the jump pack.

    I can see some benefits to this though. There would be a ready to use power supply for a GPS or cellphone, in small doses. There would also be no complicated wiring or reworking to store a new battery or capacitors. I also figure a kick start would be pretty smart back up. So I'm wondering what anyone's thoughts on this might be, any recommendations or reviews of used jump packs or if this might be another case of trying to damndest to make a better mouse trap.

  2. #2
    Senior Member BRug14468's Avatar
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    My top choice will be an antigravity jumper, something in there mid range. They seam like they should be more than enough for commuting and day or two trips.

  3. #3
    Senior Member BRug14468's Avatar
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    Along these lines, does anyone know of any pictures or threads of how hollow tws have their electronics routed and located? I'm having a hard time finding anything besides the finished project. Most of the older threads all have pictures that are no longer available.

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  5. #4
    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    Just in case anyone who hasn’t done their research stumbles across this in the future, let’s start at the beginning:

    Assuming you haven’t done so already – reading this is a good place to start – specifically the bit about LiFePO4’s – which is what you are considering using.
    Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) - ADVrider

    If you are looking at AGM (Absorbent Glass Mat) – some additional reading here.
    Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) Battery Information - Battery University
    (Try the menu on the left of the page for further information on other various battery types).

    Right – Now, let’s get back to Lithium batteries, specifically the “Anti Gravity” brand, which are LiFePO4’s.

    Compact, lightweight, everything you need in a pocket size jumper. But, once installed as a permanent replacement for the standard lead-acid battery on a TW, there are a few things you need to be aware of.

    LiFePO4’s are heat sensitive, so be (very) careful where you place one on a bike. Too near the engine or the exhaust, and you’re riding a blow-torch. They are also capable of over-heating when being used heavily. Most Lithium batteries are fine when discharged slowly, but short one out, and it’ll start heading for China. Make sure the leads have adequate insulation against vibration rubbing, or you’ll find yourself wishing you could eject what has effectively become an unstable “warp core”. Check out some of the “vaping” vids on Youtube and you’ll see what I mean – or try this link https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...tery+explosion

    Water also works quite well at causing a short. Rain, puddles, stream crossing, or total immersion can all ruin your day – not to mention your bike.


    Charging using the TW’s internal sytems:
    To quote from Types of Lithium-ion Batteries ? Battery University
    “Li-phosphate is often used to replace the lead acid starter battery. Four cells in series produce 12.80V, a similar voltage to six 2V lead acid cells in series. Vehicles charge lead acid to 14.40V (2.40V/cell). With four Li-phosphate cells in series, each tops at 3.60V, which is the correct full-charge voltage. At this point the charge should be disconnected. Li-phosphate is tolerant to some overcharge, however keeping the voltage at 14.40V for a prolonged time, as most vehicles do on a long drive, could stress Li-phosphate”.

    The TW has a regulated (continuous) charging voltage, meaning that it will (or should) out-put 14.40v to the battery. But LiFePO4’s, once fully charged, don’t like to be “continuously” charged after this. And just when you thought you were out of the woods, bear in mind they also have a lower range cut-off point, typically around 12.46v. To this end, you would need some sort of “auto cut-off” for both low and high.

    Cold starting is another issue. I note (with some amusement), that the site supplying the ones you have been looking at says “For use in Snowmobiles the fact is that all Lithium Batteries have what is called “Cold Lag”… when lithium is extremely cold it will suffer from initially sluggish performance until it is warmed up. The battery self-warms with short start attempts by discharging amperage which causes it to self-warm and soon get its full power back”. Put simply – Use (discharge) = Heat. Again, be careful where you put it. For all of the above reasons, the rear of the seat may not be such a good idea.

    Finally – Charging remotely. You will need a “Lithium Specific” charger. $65 on the site. A lower charge rate will lengthen the life of a Lithium battery, so choose the lower charge rate.

    I’ll let that lot sink in for a while ………….
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  6. #5
    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    Here’s a link to a LiFePO4 that comes with overcharge and undercharge protection - Our Batteries - EarthX Motorsports seems a lot cheaper too, though it doesn’t come with a lot of leads - Earthx Lithium Battery Yamaha 250 450cc All Other Models Including TW200 ETX12A | eBay

    May be a solution to your problem ?
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  7. #6
    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    Regarding old post still with pics – few and far between – but found one that’s still worth looking at https://tw200forum.com/forum/performa...d-build-8.html

    Scroll down a bit and click the bar above some of the pics to blow them up – scant written detail on the hollow mod, but every picture tells a story as they say.

    Sadly the guy hasn’t been on in the last couple of years.

    To explain it as much as I can, I’m gonna quote Qwerty – “4 lithium ions in a flat-4 arrangement will fit under the seat at the top of the stock battery location and not even show”.

    Seems like the way to go is to pull all the side plastics, air box and battery holder – then either cut down and re-use the original battery holder or fabricate something out of steel. There should be enough space left by the reduced Lithium battery size to stuff the remaining electrics into. Don’t forget, the new Lithium battery doesn’t need to be kept upright, which should leave you a few options to personalise the fitting.

    Once you fit a cone type air-filter, don’t forget that you’ll need to re-jet the carb. If you do go down this route, you’ll have to be careful of water. Even leaving it parked on the side-stand in the rain could get the filter wet ........
    Last edited by Purple; 04-29-2015 at 09:14 AM.
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  8. #7
    Junior Member EarthX Lithium Batteries's Avatar
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    Greetings from EarthX lithium batteries. Thank you for starting this thread and we were notified about it so thought we would chime in with some information that you might find helpful.

    There is a lot of information out there on the internet and we do recommend Battery University as a good source of information. I would like to address a few things you have brought up here, first off using a jump pack as your battery in your bike. If it is not a lithium iron phosphate (LiFePo4) cell, you can not do this as the voltage is only 11.1V. Many of the jump packs out there use a lithium polymer or lithium cobalt chemistry, 3 cells in series, 3.7V each which will give you boost power to jump your bike but can not be used as a starter battery. The Antigravity Micro-start that you reference in this thread uses the lithium polymer cells and can not be used this way and your alternator would also severely over charge them. It is very important to make sure you find a jump pack that used the LiFePo4 cells. A manufacturer will not let you know if they use the lesser quality cells, but they will let you know if they are the LiFePo4 cells as they are the most robust, stable, and expensive cell you can use for this type of application. If you already have a jump pack, simply read the voltage at the plug in to verify voltage. If it is a LiFePo4, it will ready 13.2+.

    As far as all of the rest of the warnings, there are many types of lithium chemistries but the LiFePo4 is the most stable of all of them but just as your motorcycle needs brakes, a lithium battery does need to be protected. Unfortunately, this is a component that many of the lithium manufacturers have decided to save cost on and have not included it with their batteries. EarthX is the only manufacturer that protects from over charge, over discharge, short circuit, excessive cranking protection (heat), and cell balancing in all of it's batteries. We have been very fortunate to now be working with over 10+ light sport aircraft manufacturers that have tested our batteries in house and endorse our batteries based on safety and performance and use them in their factory built aircrafts. There is a reason why none of the other power sport manufacturers are in aircrafts......if they have passed the stringent aircraft testing, they are very safe in your bike.

    Thanks for your time.

    EarthX
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    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    I feel as though a space-craft just descended and read the riot act …….

    Anyway – as I was saying – when running LiFePo4’s – you need protection or it will all end in tears.

    Right – where’s me hearing aid ………..
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  10. #9
    Senior Member BRug14468's Avatar
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    Very good information. I have a lot a reading to do but I know have a good heading and I thank you for that. I am going to look into the batteries mentioned about. The only confusion I think may have been the fact I was considering leaving the jump pack as a permanent replacement. The idea in my head was to "jump" the bike everytime I went to start it. A simple tucked away toggle switch or two would isolate the jumper when not specifically being used as a start assist. The idea for a weather proof pocket would keep all exposed connections nice and safe. I don't know if heat would be much of issue as it would be idle 99% of the time in an open circuit.

    With that being said, I can see how I may be trying to reinvent this wheel a little more than need be. I have a feeling the lithiums you mentioned will more than likely be used. I still think it would be a good idea to have a jumper ready pigtail tucked away somewhere. I really appreciate your input Purple.

  11. #10
    Super Moderator Purple's Avatar
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    No worries mate – just pointing out that you have to be (really) careful with Lithium cells. They are good at what they do, but stressed, and it’s a free ticket to China.

    You could use the pack you first suggested for various charging duties – USB and 12v accessories etc – even keep it as a spare for emergency starting. But for God’s sake don’t run it as an inline alternative for the original battery, or we’ll have another visit from the space-ship.

    However, the EarthX lithium seems to have enough protection circuits in place to keep you out of trouble to consider it as a full time alternative to the conventional battery ……..
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