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Thread: TW200 CDI

  1. #1
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    Here is my start at a topic for the "Win a TW200 Rear Rack" contest...





    My 1991 TW200 has some serious CDI issues, and so during a bout of insanity I decided to see what makes it tick, and if it could be repaired. So far, no pictures or representations of the inside of a TW200 CDI are available online, to my knowledge.





    Overview/Model Info



    The following year ranges have different CDIs. Not all TW200 CDI units are the same!



    1987- only year with this crazy one

    (1988-1997) 2YG-85540-M0-00

    (1998-2000) 2YG-85540-10-00

    (2001-2011) 5LB-85540-01-00



    2010 TW CDI is $161.00

    2000 TW CDI is $197.00

    1996 TW CDI is $286.00





    *** Special Note: Zongshen 200 dualsport motorcycles are apparently a chinese knock-off of the TW200 engine. The CDI units cost ~$25 so it would be nice to be able to use them. Unfortunately this post http://www.chinariders.net/modules.p...r=asc&start=30 says that they are incompatible. Further information provided later in this thread you are reading shows that they will not work.



    Forum Threads / Links:



    TW200 Specific:

    https://tw200forum.com/forums/95943/ShowPost.aspx (broken images, good info)



    https://tw200forum.com/forums/88852/ShowPost.aspx (test info for stators, pulse coil, charging coil, rectifier, cdi, oscilloscope trace images!!)



    https://tw200forum.com/forums/88258/ShowPost.aspx (good info)



    https://tw200forum.com/forums/99658/ShowPost.aspx ("could it be the cdi?")



    https://tw200forum.com/index.php?/topic/2570-cdi/ (current thread with good info)



    https://tw200forum.com/index.php?/top...7-with-94-cdi/ ("'87 with '94 cdi?")



    https://tw200forum.com/index.php?/top...7-wtb-90s-cdi/ (discussion regarding conversion from '88-'00 CDI to newer style '01+ CDI)





    "General" or not TW200 Specific:



    http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/arc.../t-290641.html (good troubleshooting info, description of possible issues, etc)



    http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/arc.../t-965526.html (good information regarding chemicals that can be used to dissolve the "potting compound")



    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=377930 (interesting thread about heating CDI with a heat gun until it is too hot to touch -- I tried this and it worked for a day)



    http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/arc.../t-584367.html (general CDI repair thread - excellent information)



    http://www.transmic.net/en/yamaha.htm (How a yamaha CDI works (XT600))



    http://www.dragonfly75.com/moto/CDI-mod.html (timing curve info)



    http://www.dragonfly75.com/moto/CDI.html (cdi circuit modification and repair)



    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=559136 ("XT550 - How to soften the epoxy/rubber?" - discusses building analog CDI to verify original is faulty, good links and pictures)



    http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html (LARGE resource of information about motorcycle ignitions, intended for Yamaha Vision owners but has vast amounts of applicable info)



    http://www.btinternet.com/~jhpart/bkns125a.htm (DIY CDI information. Not sure how a CDI works? This is the page to start reading) - "If you have no advance and retard unit on your four stroke, then the electronic ignition just does this job and building your own is going to be difficult or expensive, so simply buy the correct CDI unit. " --- Per a post in this thread, I believe the TW200 CDI has the timing advance built into the circuit, and so building your own CDI would be quite difficult.



    http://www.transmic.net/en/home.htm (DIY CDI for XT400-550-600, and building analog CDIs)



    http://peony888.com/VS/programmableCDI.htm (Programmable CDI/TCI Ignition)

    http://www.keterex.com/kx1130.php (KX1130 Ignition Controller IC)



    Mega/Microsquirt (standalone aftermarket ignition... can also be used to control fuel injection):



    http://www.microsquirt.info/

    http://www.megasquirt.info/

    http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=23004 (converting suzuki DR650 to wasted spark ignition with megasquirt)

    http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=23497 (Microsquirt Newbie: ignition only setup on a small 4-stroke single)





    Jaycar High Energy Ignition kits:



    http://www.jaycar.us/productView.asp...n&form=KEYWORD

    http://www.jaycar.us/productView.asp...n&form=KEYWORD

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/36285088/kc5...ion_System.pdf (jaycar HEI kit (37page pdf))

    http://www.megasquirt.info/



    http://www.electronics.gompy.net/ (Gompy's open source CDI system)





    Disassembly/Repair



    http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=204 (fixing cracked traces on circuit boards)



    Standard Disclaimer: I am no way responsible for you trying to do something like what is presented here and frying a $2-300 piece of sensitive electronics. If the pictures look uncomfortable, the job will be even more so. You are not too late to turn back now!





    The project started out by disassembling the CDI. Not something that is recommended unless you never get bored or sick of a project. The CDI is a plastic box which contains a couple of circuit boards, in the case of my 1991. The circuit boards are put inside the plastic box and then it is filled with a terrible nasty rubberish epoxy stuff that could only have come from the mind of the most hateful engineer.







    A cordless dremel tool with a cutoff wheel was used to make incisions around the edges of the box. After the cover piece was removed in small bits (the case was brittle and simply chipped apart), I was totally scared and not sure what to do. All that could be seen was some black goo, with no indication of how far down the sensitive electronics were.



    The bottom of the case was then cut off, so that I could see where the edge of the circuit board was, so as to know how deep to "dig" with a screwdriver when removing the goo.







    It turns out that in the end of the CDI opposite where the wires enter, there is a secondary circuit board that is above the primary. This board is at an angle and can be quite deceiving if you think it is the only thing in the box...







    After that discovery, the sides of the plastic CDI box were cut off with the dremel, to determine the ACTUAL depth of the main circuit board.











    From here it is much like an archaelogical dig... Slowly remove "the black goo" with a pick, screwdriver, knife, chisel, or whatever... All while being extremely careful to not destroy anything on the circuit board.







    The back of the case was then removed bit by bit, so that the underside of the board could be examined. There is only a thin layer of goo between the circuit board and the plastic case, so BE CAREFUL!







    Here you can see corrosion on the solder joints at the end of the board. This is where all of the wires from the external connectors join the circuit board.
    ITCB

  2. #2
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    ITCB

  3. #3
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    Progress so far in diagnosing/repairing the pictured CDI:



    All wires have continuity from the point where they connect to the bike's wiring harness to the solder joints on the back side of the board.



    All printed circuits have continuity from these solder joints further into the board. Nothing seems to have continuity that should not (circuits seem to be isolated still).



    All solder joints on board look OK - corroded connections shown above were cleaned up



    Large brown-ish 225k capacitor tests OK @ 225k



    Light blue smaller capacitors on side test OK @ .47



    ** Purple capacitors do not test OK -- ~~27 and ~18 rather than 47 each **



    A note about these purple capacitors: I have replaced almost the exact same part in several Dell LCD monitors in the past couple of years. In the case of the monitors though, the capacitors had visibly failed.































    ITCB

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  5. #4
    Senior Member lizrdbrth's Avatar
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    I've taken a couple of them apart, but never was able to get them chipped down that far without damage.



    Both were '87's, but slightly different to one another in that one was solid resin and the other appeared to be black silicone followed my the resin matrix, which was easier to take apart.



    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

    Powdercoated '87 frame, extended swingarm, YZ fork legs, ATV tire, 14/55, XT350 tank, spliced quick-release seat, disc brake conversion, beeg headlight, beeger rack, Lizrdcooler, Lizrdventz and bunch of other stuff all covered in invisible ink.

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  6. #5
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    Those first two posts and this one reserved for added info should be plenty... I wouldn't mind if this thread turns into a discussion unless it is forbidden in the "win a rear rack" rules







    <edit>



    Here are pics of the CDI with three new 50v 47uf capacitors soldered in (new shiny green capacitors) as well as an NEC 2p4m SCR/thyristor































    ITCB

  7. #6
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizrdbrth View Post
    I've taken a couple of them apart, but never was able to get them chipped down that far without damage.



    Both were '87's, but slightly different to one another in that one was solid resin and the other appeared to be black silicone followed my the resin matrix, which was easier to take apart.




    I spent about another 1.5hrs last night in front of the TV chipping away at it. Forgot to take pics but it is even more exposed now. The bike was ridden yesterday with it as shown in the pics above, I just stuffed it in a cigarette pack and used the rubber clip to put it back in the bike. It was running much better but still had some sputtering and other issues.



    The initial problem was as described in several other "bad cdi" posts, where the bike would be OK at low RPM but would act like it was out of gas and totally bog down at higher RPM. This seems to have gone away but it is still not firing properly...













    ^^ posted by demarko69 in "1987 ignition problem" thread





    If I am reading this correctly.......





    Green, White, Brown, Red go from CDI -> magneto



    blue/yellow -> sidestand switch



    black -> "handlebar switch(left)" - turn, horn, lights



    blue -> clutch switch



    orange -> ignition coil



    black/white -> kill switch







    Now I need to find the "post 2001 supplement" or something, I guess?



    <edit>



    post '01 supplement shows



    a/c magneto :



    w/r, w/l, b/r, g/w -> cdi



    l/y goes from CDI -> main switch



    Orange goes from CDI -> coil



    Black(?) goes from CDI -> ground



    One pin on 8pin connector appears unused, with an "X" showing in the pinout diagram of the connector
    ITCB

  8. #7
    Senior Member lizrdbrth's Avatar
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    Yes, I've had them go bad and was able to get them to run right by turning the CDI upside down, sideways, etc. Doesn't make a lot of sense since they're solid state and smothered in resin, but they would work.



    I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

    Powdercoated '87 frame, extended swingarm, YZ fork legs, ATV tire, 14/55, XT350 tank, spliced quick-release seat, disc brake conversion, beeg headlight, beeger rack, Lizrdcooler, Lizrdventz and bunch of other stuff all covered in invisible ink.

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  9. #8
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizrdbrth View Post
    Yes, I've had them go bad and was able to get them to run right by turning the CDI upside down, sideways, etc. Doesn't make a lot of sense since they're solid state and smothered in resin, but they would work.




    Yes these are some strange beasts. I just added a link to the first post to a forum topic about heating up the CDI with a heat gun. The original poster said it would get him 60 days of use. I tried it and it worked great for a day but then was back to normal.



    Going to get some replacement capacitors for the 50v 47k purple caps on my lunch break, and solder them in tonight to see what happens.
    ITCB

  10. #9
    Senior Member uktw125's Avatar
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    This is all way above my head but interesting none the less. Electronics and me have never seen eye to eye.

    Keep us updated please and I may grasp this modern technology one day.

  11. #10
    Senior Member operose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uktw125 View Post
    This is all way above my head but interesting none the less. Electronics and me have never seen eye to eye.

    Keep us updated please and I may grasp this modern technology one day.


    Don't worry, there are pieces of this beast that I don't understand either, even with a fancy college edjumacation.



    My local electronics supply did not have the proper capacitors, so I have placed an order online and should have them in "2-4 days"



    Your username just brought me back to a post I stumbled upon the other day, where someone said they have a TW200 running fine on a TW125 CDI... Anyone have any more info about this? I can't seem to bring the post up.
    ITCB

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