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Yamaha, why no FUEL INJECTION? !!!!!!!!!!!

26K views 63 replies 42 participants last post by  SEADUB200 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey gang,
Just wondering. When I began my search for a small, run-a-round semi-dirt/street toy, I actually was interested in a Honda "Monkey Bike". Most of you are aware of its attributes and one of them being it's FUEL INJECTED. Well, it's a long story but, I shied away from a $5,400 out-the-door price tag for such a small bike and, with limited intended use. So, my next choice was the Suzuki VanVan. First off, what kind of a name is "VanVan". Who, in their right mind, came up with that? Anyway, that bike, in case some you are not aware, is almost, I say ALMOST a clone to the TW200. Only it's a bit more oriented to street use, as opposed to the intended dual use of a TW. But, in any case, it's a 200 cc FUEL INJECTED bike. I watched and read a few reviews and well, it ended up that, it too was gonna have a bit too high of an out-the-door price. My plan for this purchase was just for goofing around on in situations like light off roading and squirling around on the street some. I got a giant Goldwing for any serious travels.

Anyway, Yamaha surely has some of its lineup that is FUEL INJECTED, don't they? Their little TW 200 is now 30 years old and from what I can tell, it's still a hot ticket for Yamaha. And, especially in this day and age where emmisions and fuel mileage is always a hot topic, why, WHY then, has Yamaha not thrown a very basic fuel injection system on these rather well selling motorcycles? I mean, that little 125 cc in the Monkey bike is fuel injected, as well as the 200 cc in the VanVan. And, I've not really done a bunch of research on any other models of any other manufacturer or, even in the same manufacturers, in the same cc category to see just what's fuel injected and what's not.

I know and realize that fuel injection might be a bit more costly to design and install but, hey, as any manufacturer knows, it's a SERIOUSLY better fuel system than a carburetor. It doesn't care about attitude or altitude or, ambient temp or anything. It just takes care of itself. So, just wondering why Yamaha hasn't thrown on fuel injection onto these, ever so popular bikes?
Scott

P.S.
We're on a trip right now traveling and camping at various points in AZ, UT, CO, NB, ID, OR and maybe a few others. I setup the TW on a "versa hauler", on the back of the motorhome and, we're also towing our Jeep JKUR. While sitting around our camp sites, we've gotten more pleasant comments about the TW than I would have ever expected. I've even been offered to sell it. Ain't gonna happen, at this point in time. Anyway, sure seems a lot of guys (and even some women) sure like that little bike.
Scott
 
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#5 ·
If I was in the market I would consider a Chinese dual sport.....before the price goes up...:)

My bikes run fine at any elevation I ride at from 0 to 8000' so I don't ever think about fuel injection.....if I wanted to know....I would ask Yamaha...
Wondering, just WHO at Yamaha, would you ask? I mean, decisions like that are made waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up the food chain. Like all sales people at all dealerships at all vehicles/motorcycles/motorhomes/trucks/boats etc., I trust NONE of them for accurate answers. Fuel injection pretty much is and, has been the "norm" for everything I just mentioned for oh, maybe at least 30-35 years or more. Yet, Yamaha, for most likely cost reasons, still runs a carb on these small bikes. It's no big deal, I just kind-a wonder. Besides, as most folks know, about 99.99% of the engines in any vehicle that were carbureted, and then the next model year were fuel injected, turned out much more horse power due to seriously better fuel control. Just thinking.

Scott
 
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#7 · (Edited)
I bought my bike because it's not fuel injected. With EPA standards resulting in bikes running too lean I want to be able to correct the fuel delivery as to not burn out my engine and waste the foot print used to build my engine by running it efficiently. I also don't want to rely on dealerships to maintain my bike. I know they are "more reliable" but only until they break down.

I for one miss the kick starter too....it is such a simple reliable system. Why they remove independence from trail bikes is beyond me. I guess they want to risk leaving us stranded in the woods with no ability to rescue ourselves. Even KTMs have had recall electrical issues leaving riders stranded in the woods where a bump start isn't always possible.

In 5 years of rough offroad I've done all my own servicing having no need to go to a dealer and the carb only needed to be richened since they sell them lean.

Also if the TW had been redesigned for fuel injection it would be likely be as expensive or maybe more then the Vanvan,
 
#27 · (Edited)
I bought my bike because it's not fuel injected. With EPA standards resulting in bikes running too lean I want to be able to correct the fuel delivery as to not burn out my engine and waste the foot print used to build my engine by running it efficiently. I also don't want to rely on dealerships to maintain my bike. I know they are "more reliable" but only until they break down.

I for one miss the kick starter too....it is such a simple reliable system. Why they remove independence from trail bikes is beyond me. I guess they want to risk leaving us stranded in the woods with no ability to rescue ourselves. Even KTMs have had recall electrical issues leaving riders stranded in the woods where a bump start isn't always possible.

In 5 years of rough offroad I've done all my own servicing having no need to go to a dealer and the carb only needed to be richened since they sell them lean.

Also if the TW had been redesigned for fuel injection it would be likely be as expensive or maybe more then the Vanvan,
Same here. I have no use for a trail bike (or any bike for that matter) for which the tool kit consists of a cellphone.
Fuel injection is a deal breaker for me. As in, if a bike has it, I'm not interested. Fuel injection requires a computer to control it and a fuel pump to feed it. Neither of those items work if the battery dies. And that's just the beginning of why I don't like them.
A carb needs nothing beyond a supply of fuel, and it is perfectly happy with gravity feed.
I prefer carbs on my Jeeps, too.

Btw, I just bought a brand new bike. It has a carburetor and kick start.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I am certainly no expert but my understanding is that fuel injection is superior in every way to carburation...... especially when it comes to engine fires ……. I have been able to contact factory engineers at Jeep and Cummings and Chevrolet in the past....most often by phone.....if you email the Company you will likely get a response by a customer relations person....but....sometimes you will get a reply by someone who knows...no offense intended....

Edited to add....I have a couple old cars with carbs and chokes ....one with Webbers no less.....and I have a fire extinguisher handy and my fingers crossed when I lite them up...:)
 
#26 ·
I am certainly no expert but my understanding is that fuel injection is superior in every way to carburation...... especially when it comes to engine fires ……. I have been able to contact factory engineers at Jeep and Cummings and Chevrolet in the past....most often by phone.....if you email the Company you will likely get a response by a customer relations person....but....sometimes you will get a reply by someone who knows...no offense intended....

Edited to add....I have a couple old cars with carbs and chokes ....one with Webbers no less.....and I have a fire extinguisher handy and my fingers crossed when I lite them up...:)
No, it's absolutely not.
 
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#9 ·
Carbs can be a real pain when they aren't working right. I lived in Arizona and I would routinely ride up to Alpine AZ (elevation 8,000), all through the White Mountains (9k to 10k) and lived in Holbrook (Elevation 5,000). I would wonder how much HP I lot because the carb didn't adjust to the elevation like FI. I know with the KLR650 the emission were terrible and in 2019 Kawasaki couldn't keep selling the KLR650 with a carb they would have to switch to FI. Similar to the TW200 the KLR was a virtually unchanged (other than the fairing in 2008) bike for many years. They couldn't justify the cost and stopped making the bike and the KLR650 is a lot more popular in terms of sales than a TW. The day the EPA forces FI on small cc motorcycles will be the day the TW dies...remember a carb cost what $50-$100 to manufacture if that. FI systems are very expensive and dependent on other expense that carbs don't have fuel pump, better electrical systems, injectors etc. It would be nice but I doubt it. Who will be the first person to take the FI from a VanVan and put it on a TW200?!
 
#10 ·
Well my understanding is specifically cost and practicality. If they update one thing, they have to update everything. They'd have to essentially overhaul the entire bike to meet current emissions/etc. standards, not just the fuel system.

Regardless, people are buying it as is still, so there isn't much incentive for them to update it. It gets awesome gas mileage already, and is super easy to work on compared to a Fuel Injected system—yes, if the carb isn't running right, it can be a hassle to tune it properly, but it's still relatively easy to take apart, clean and put back together (and much much cheaper). If you're out in the wild riding on trails and what not, you can keep the TW running through almost anything.

It's possible that they'll eventually have to update it to keep selling it. I imagine they won't bother updating it until that point—and honestly, it might just go away at that point :(
 
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#12 ·
Yamaha's competition machines annually gobble up a lot of R&D funds to stay in the hunt that aren't alway offset by sales revenue of those same machines . Money for that plus a reasonable profit and return on investment means rest of product line, including TWs, have to kick in whenever possible.
 
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#15 ·
Computers and fuel injection definitely make horsepower. [Back in my drag race days a top fuel car maybe could eek out 1500 to 2000 hp. With today's computers they easily double that. Just more precise and efficient.]
But carbs are simple and easily fixed out on the trail. Keeping bike simple keeps price down, no r&d needed. Emissions are what has got rid of most engines with carbs, not customer demand [precise mixtures].
 
#16 ·
Why spend more money when the TW keeps on selling? There are a lot of bikes with fuel injection out there already, so why change the TW? You want a fuel injected Yamaha? They already offer an XT250. Why would a company invest more money into a product that sells great as it is? Yamaha is making money on the TW and it won't change it until it doesn't. It's all about the $$$$$.
 
#20 ·
They’re not for everyone. But they still sell a ton of them. Lots of great FI bikes out there. Only one with fat tires. And it will never come close to the TW in terms of sales volume and functionality. The main reason why I keep buying them is because they have remained relatively unchanged since 87 and all I need is a basic tool kit to keep em running. Even if they stop production, I’ll still keep buying em.
 
#21 ·
Well gang,
While I may be new "here", I'm certainly not new to carbs, FI and every inch of an automobile/truck/motorhome/motorcycle/boat and more. Been working on them for well over 55 years. Yes, it may be a bit more cost to insert FI into the workings of a TW. But, as anyone who's ever been involved in mass business application, the more you make/sell/operate, the cost goes waaaaaay down. And, not only that but, companies the size of Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Triumph, Harley Davidson and all the rest, can easily absorb any "up front" costs in order to sell an improved product. I myself am kind-a surprised that ANY manufacturer is still allowed to produce any vehicle, motorcycle, boat, anything with a carburetor since it's quite obvious that FI is a vast improvement in engine operations, emissions and especially, economy. I have no idea just what it takes to make that FI system in that tiny, 125CC Honda Monkey bike or the VanVan work but, apparently it was worth it to both companies to invest in FI for them.

Now, OF COURSE it's easier to work on a carb if and when it goofs up, no doubt about that. Not a whole lot of back yard mechanics that can diagnose an FI problem, especially if it's controlled by ECM's etc. I totally agree that the carb on a TW is without a doubt, a much easier operating system that ALL of us can "screw" with if and when the time comes and is needed. I am not a design engineer. I doubt that the TW will cease in sales if Yamaha is somehow forced to FI it, if, IF, it's determined by the execs at Yamaha headquarters, that added cost (again, can be absorbed) of FI'ing it will benefit, AND, the companies foot print in emissions for its total fleet is lowered (which is also a kick-back factor in cost of operating by the Government).

I'm not debating on whether it (the TW) should or should not be changed to FI or not. I merely stated that since so much of the worlds now-days motorized equipment is FI, including at least some of Yamahas fleet, I was just wondering why the TW isn't. I just figure if Honda can do it with a small, 125CC Monkey bike and it sells like hot cakes, the cost must not be TOO PROHIBITIVE.
Scott
 
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#22 ·
IMO, my TW has only 4 significant short-comings and a ton of little stuff that's easy to upgrade.

I wish it had 4 things from the factory, in this order:
Aluminum rear wheel.
EFI.
6-spd. box.
Kick starter (along w/electric).

Steel wheel is ridiculous.
EFI is far superior to carbs.
6-spd. is fun, efficient & faster.
Kicker is obvious.

Strange critters, we T-Dub junkies...some still argue that drum front brakes are just as good as, or maybe even better than, discs!
I wish we had them in rear, too.
 
#36 ·
As far as I know...the Yamaha XT250's have been FI since 2013.



Not so sure I agree with that one....many XT225 owners have gone to the TTR225 rear wheel because it is steel. The stock XT225 rear wheel (with its aluminum hub) is renowned for tossing spokes.
i've heard that too, but after a year of riding 2 up in Utah, Nevada and Oregon, i never had even a loose spoke. infact i'm sorry i sold mine and am looking for another
 
#24 ·
Good God... please keep the FI away from bikes like this. Modding it becomes more involved, price goes into Honda territory, if it goes bad while you are out you have less chance of getting it right and riding back. It's why I own a DRZ and TW. The less electronics controlling my engine the better. I rarely... very, very rarely have ever had an issue with a carb that wasn't an easy fix and didn't cost me much. One O2 sensor goes bad, you could probably buy three carburetors. I don't understand this mindset for a bike like these.
 
#25 ·
With Europe and Australia having mandatory ABS on all bikes starting in 2021 (all new models must already be ABS equipped, older models have until 2021 to adapt ABS) I think it will be the death of the older carbureted motorcycles. I don't think Yamaha will want to add ABS to the TW?
 
#32 ·
Keep in mind, these are bikes that have pretty good sales here in the US and places in Asia as well simply because they are cheap and reliable. Let Europe and Australia continue their foolishness. Europe is probably going to kill KTM or make them wise up and move.
 
#28 ·
I have to admit I like my two good 'ole fashioned, cable-actuated drum brakes!
 
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