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TW200 Performance and Customization

Started by davedyno at 11-26-2009 6:35 PM. Topic has 54 replies.

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   11-26-2009, 6:35 PM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Joined on 09-14-2009
S.E. MI
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25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Tubeless goodness!  A 12 x 4 trailer tire, a custom hub, a Duro 25 x 8 x 12 tire and a lot of cursing trying to make the brake drum fit.



Bead seated at 25 psi.  Nothing blew up. 





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   11-26-2009, 6:45 PM
tw1994 is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 3:51:06 AM tw1994



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Joined on 06-30-2009
Stockton Ca.
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Big Smile [:D] Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Perfect, tell us more !!
The Dutchman, Stockton Ca
2001 Dyna Superglyde
2006 Honda Rancher 4x4
1994 TW200
2008 Starcraft 34RT
1994 F250 powerstroke/Lance LC480-9.6
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   11-26-2009, 6:56 PM
JS5owner is not online. Last active: 7/14/2010 6:19:52 PM JS5owner



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Joined on 04-02-2007
Desert Hot Springs / Palm Springs CA
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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Whoa! Yes, please tell us more... how you did it, etc. etc. etc. I looks good! How do you like it?
2007-Turn Beeper, Tusk riser & guards, Cycleracks Rear, Garmin 60csx & 205w, Ricochet Armor, Rear Bag, Gorilla Alarm, Stearns cover, 90d fuel filter, Oury Grips, Mule Hitch Pin, Duro Power Grip & 6006 tires, Digital temp & tach, 55t sprocket, Odyssey batt.
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   11-26-2009, 7:11 PM
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Joined on 05-12-2009
Fort Drum, NY
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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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very impressive!

I would love to see/read a step-by-step.... please!

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   11-26-2009, 7:30 PM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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The Axle, sprocket flange and wheel flange are pretty straight forward.  Lots of turning and drilling, jig it up and weld it. All made out of mild steel.  The brake drum mount was difficult.  The maximum diameter that the wheel center can be turned to is around 3-1/4".  I ended up with a 2 piece mount, and a slight clearance of the brake drum to clear the mounting bolts.

I'll take it back off and take some pics after I run it around a bit. 

If You're thinking about building one, the 5 bolt rim will allow a large enough center hole.  I don't think the 4 bolt rim will work.

A 14 or 15 inch trailer rim will work also, but the rim will be a lot heavier and the tire choices are much better in 12".  If you completely destroy a tire halfway up the Dempster highway, you could probably get a spare off from the next trailer coming up the road and make it home.

I used 2-1/8" OD DOM, 1/8" wall thickness.  Turned bearing cups independently, used the center spacer as a depth gage to jig the cups into place and weld. 

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   11-26-2009, 8:55 PM
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Joined on 11-24-2009
bermuda-new york
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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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my hat is off to you good man that looks sick
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   11-27-2009, 5:03 PM
rodrey is not online. Last active: 7/14/2010 6:37:59 PM rodrey



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Joined on 05-14-2009
Simi Valley, Ca
Posts 745
Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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WOW!
Excellent work!

TW-less for now...
Proud Dad of a Marine
3 1/2 gallon Clarke tank
Banshee rear shock
XT250 forks
21" front rim
XT250 speedo cluster
XT225 kickstand
Duro Power Grip ATV tire
Opened up exhaust
CRF 450 handlebars
GPS bar mount


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   11-27-2009, 11:44 PM
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Joined on 01-07-2007
SW Missouri
Posts 114
Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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So are ya going to make some more and sell them to your buds here? i would love to run tube less. Bet ya could make a profit!
Slow Ride 99 TW




99 TW
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   11-28-2009, 8:07 PM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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The center 3 bolts attach the sub plate to the hub.


This part of the hub needs to fit through the center hole in the rim.  You shouldn't remove enough metal from the rim to cut into the bumps around the studs.  That area acts like a giant belleville washer when you torque the lugs.


Blurry pic of area that needs to be clearanced on the brake drum to clear the center bolts.


Sub plate attached to drum.





The Tire, Brake drum, sprocket and hub weigh 42 lbs.  The Equivalent stock pieces weight 32 lbs.  5 lbs of the weight differential are the tire.  It's a 6 ply and it's hefty.......

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   11-28-2009, 8:31 PM
QWERTY is not online. Last active: 1/27/2010 11:44:02 AM QWERTY

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Nicely done! Do you think it might be easier to adapt a front rotor instead of the drum? My rear brake is marginal with the stock tire, I expect it would be over-powered by the additional weight of the ATV tire and would not be able to take advantage of the increased traction.
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   11-29-2009, 8:24 AM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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 QWERTY wrote:
Nicely done! Do you think it might be easier to adapt a front rotor instead of the drum? My rear brake is marginal with the stock tire, I expect it would be over-powered by the additional weight of the ATV tire and would not be able to take advantage of the increased traction.


As I was trying to puzzle through the drum, I kept wishing I had a disc to play with.  The disc mount could fit further outboard, gaining some clearance for the lugs / studs. It shouldn't be that difficult to fab a caliper mount up on the swingarm.

The real problem is the centerhole clearance for the rim.  Ideally, it would make sense to use a stock center hole that hasn't been enlarged.  It gives you many more options when you mess something up far from home.  You could add drilled and tapped inserts into the body of the axle and mount radially to the axle, but it's a bunch of work.

I can lock my rear wheel with the drum. Maybe try a different set of shoes in your rear drum?    Only problem I have with the rear is that it never seems to be adjusted right.  It works best on the ragged edge of dragging......

Now my front drum is another story.  More lever pressure does not equal more brake.  Needs improvement.....

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   11-29-2009, 5:13 PM
City Man is not online. Last active: 7/14/2010 6:42:49 PM City Man



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Joined on 10-20-2009
El Paso
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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Excellent job, just too cool. 


It never hurts to do good - Eek the Cat
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   12-06-2009, 4:48 PM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Threw a Banshee shock on and added a Clarke XT350 tank.  Went the "ELDAVO" route.



Turned out to be easier than I had expected.  Cut the front of the TW seat pan off, splice on the front of an XT350 seat pan.



Add some padding under the XT350 foam to match the TW pan to the XT foam.  The cover is an XT350 replacement.



Lots of stretching and stapling later, only the tail end is left with some mild wrinkles.  The XT350 foam is about 1 inch shorter than the TW pan, but it works.



No more waiting for a "maybe" TW200 tank, and I really dislike the stock TW seat anyway.  The XT350 foam is taller, giving a better seat to peg distance for me.


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   12-15-2009, 7:41 PM
QWERTY is not online. Last active: 1/27/2010 11:44:02 AM QWERTY

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Nicely done. what tire are you running on the front?
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   12-16-2009, 4:26 AM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Kenda K760 Trackmaster II, 100/100/18.




I have mixed reviews. It is DOT approved.  It's a great tire in loose stuff, but a terrible pavement tire.  It can develop a bit of high speed (TW = high speed?) wobble, and you can turn sharp enough at low speed ( U turn in the driveway) to "fall off" the edge of the knobs.  Not a round enough profile to be a good front tire.

But, it opens up lots of possibilities.  Seems that a 100/100/18 dirt tire is actually pretty close to a 120/80/18 in street tire.  a 110/100/18 is close to a 130/80/18.  There are plenty of front tire options available in the dirt bike section of your favorite store.  Look for one designed to go on a 2.5" rim and you should be good.

Tire Chart



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   12-16-2009, 6:26 PM
QWERTY is not online. Last active: 1/27/2010 11:44:02 AM QWERTY

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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That's the same tire I've been running on the front on dualsport rides. Mine is 120/90-18. The speed wobble goes away after a few hundred miles. In soft terrain sharp turns aren't a problem because the side knobs dig in. The edges of the knobs round off with miles and the tire turns better then. Be careful cranking it over in the fast corners on pavement, too--those staggered knobs on the edge are pretty soft and it gets a bit squirrely. Gotta love the braking power, though. I've been rear-ended almost as many times as people have locked their 21s and crashed when I stopped in front of them.
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   12-18-2009, 7:45 AM
mrgizmow is not online. Last active: 7/15/2010 12:33:17 AM mrgizmow



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Joined on 10-21-2006
Paradise, Calif.
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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires

Attachment: Email or Web.jpg
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WOW!!                                        Gerry

 

       GRAND MASTER



Be safe my Friend.
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   12-18-2009, 9:22 AM
Hendragster is not online. Last active: 3/8/2010 3:52:29 PM Hendragster



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Joined on 12-18-2009
Largo, Florida
Posts 114
Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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the bike looks sick! I like your new tank. how much gas does it carry now?
Ride...
1985 Honda Astrea800 - Dad's bike I rode when I was 8
1994 Honda Astrea-Grand100 (stolen in 1999)
1976 CB125 - built into a dirtbike (sold)
2006 Yamaha Scorpio-Z225 (in Indo)
2005 TW200 (in Florida)
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   12-18-2009, 11:09 AM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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 Hendragster wrote:
the bike looks sick! I like your new tank. how much gas does it carry now?

Just under 4 gallons, but I suspect it will increase slightly as the tank swells.

 

Thanks Gerry!  Embarrassed [:$]


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   12-29-2009, 11:29 AM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Not quite finished yet, but I took a trial run to see how the new front forks work.



Bored out a set of stock triples to 35 mm and fitted a set of Honda NX125 forks.  Made a new axle and put the stock rim back on.  Shows promise....

More info when I get some details finished up.



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   12-29-2009, 1:21 PM
City Man is not online. Last active: 7/14/2010 6:42:49 PM City Man



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Joined on 10-20-2009
El Paso
Posts 227
Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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One heck of a project. Well done.


It never hurts to do good - Eek the Cat
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   12-29-2009, 2:51 PM
Ronnydog is not online. Last active: 7/15/2010 11:50:53 PM Ronnydog



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Joined on 04-29-2008
Poway Ca.
Posts 458
Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Great work!!!!!!!!!!! What is the weight of the rim?

Ronnydog
9"Tire,Powder Coat\Frame,3"Extended SwingArm,TTR230 Piston,Sleve,Crank,15-70 Sprocket,Custom Rack,Brush,Gooved Siped Tires,Black-Out Switches,6006 Front Tire,Heated Grips,Ricochet Plate,Signal Mod,Kickstand Plate,Deer hauler, Oil cooler/spal fan, silencer
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   12-29-2009, 5:10 PM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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The rear rim is 9 lbs, 4 oz.

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   01-24-2010, 9:04 AM
davedyno is not online. Last active: 6/9/2010 2:17:05 PM davedyno

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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Rear suspension information:



A Banshee rear shock.  I started with the stock banshee spring.  The ride height with my 200 lb arse seated was only slightly higher than stock.  I could bottom the suspension on pavement by standing on the pegs and bouncing up and down.  Not good.  Pulled the spring and did some research.

Eibach Springs for Banshee- A Clicky Link




Stock Banshee spring on left, 450 lb eibach 2.25" x 9" in middle, stock TW200 on right.

Stock Banshee Springs are 6.8 Kg / mm, multiplying by 56 gives you 381 lb / in for the stock spring.

The Banshee spring is 56mm ID by ~230mm long.  56mm = 2.20", and a wide selection of race springs are available in 2.25" ID. 230 mm length = 9.05", and 9" springs are available in 2.25" I.D.  Off to the eibach catalog, and I order up a 450 lb / in 2.25" x 9" eibach spring. 

450 lb / in is not really enough.  Harder to bottom on road, but pretty weak.  With preload turned up full, and ~ 8.5 " suspension travel, static sag is 1.5", loaded with rider only sag is 4.5". 

Back to the Eibach catalog for a 600 lb spring.
With about 1/2 of preload adjustment, static sag is 3/4", 200 lb rider only sag is 3.5".  Suspension travel is about 8.5".  Close enough.
Its snowy and cold here now,


 but I've ridden it enough to think that the shock can be tweaked to work acceptably with the spring rate.  The Rebound adjuster seems to have been too stiff for any practical purpose with the stock spring, and turning it up some ends any pogo action.  I don't expect it is ready for supercross action, but it will be fine for a TW with an attitude.

The 2.25" spring is a little loose on the bottom perch, but will work fine.  If I were doing it over again, I would probably use a shorter spring and machine a spacer / adapter to more closely retain the ID of the spring on the bottom mount.  This spring has a 4.5" range of travel, and the banshee shock travel needs to be restricted to around 2-3/8" to try to keep the tire from bottoming in the frame too hard.  The Stock TW spring would probably work ok with a spacer, but I suspect that the static sag will be a bit much with the dual rate spring.

Take the seat off to see where things are going to bottom:


Split some nylon washers like these:


And add them below the current stroke limiter to help prevent any bottoming.  (The spring is off to measure travel)



 Eibach part # 0900.225.0600 is the spring I ended up with.  You can get them a variety of places, Summit racing has them for ~$75. I think any 6-9 " 2.25" ID spring in the 500 to 700 lb/ in range could be made to work.

A piece of trivia for anyone playing with suspension stuff:  Using crude measurement tools and sometimes guessing, I come up with the following: 
20.25" from front swingarm pivot to rear axle (on #7 adjuster).
5.5" from front swingarm pivot to theoretical centerpoint of shock mount on swingarm.
20.25" / 5.5" = 3.68 : 1 motion ratio

Comparing the travel limiters I put on the shock at 2.375":
2.375" shock travel x 3.38 motion ratio = 8.74" travel.  I've been claiming ~8.5", could be 8.75". 
I therefore proclaim the motion ratio to be kinda sorta 3.68 : 1. 
This might come in handy if your shock guy asks......   :)

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   01-25-2010, 8:21 AM
mrgizmow is not online. Last active: 7/15/2010 12:33:17 AM mrgizmow



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Joined on 10-21-2006
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Re: 25 x 8 x 12 ATV Tires
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Hey Dave, I didn't realize you had done the fork mod as well.  With the atv tire, Clark tank, Banshee r. shock, and a long travel front fork, you pretty much have in your possession, the Ultimate TW.....  Congratulations.         Gerry
Be safe my Friend.
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