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Discussion Starter #1
So I came across a blog which I can't find again where a guy rants on full synthetic oil and why it isn't as good as 100% synthetic oil. I found this thread in another forum I think it is good info that crosses over to our bikes. M 1full syn 4T is an oil many use in their bikes thinking it is a true synthetic oil, it was, maybe not now. Around the 2000's the oil companies were allowed to call refined mineral oil synthetic due to a lawsuit between oil companty C and oil company M. Do you think we are being duped? Check it out and do some research yourself. I am not a chemist but the base oil in most Full synthetic oils now is not PAO which is considered real synthetic oil base. From my understanding real synthetic oil can be derived from mineral oil they just take Ethylene from it and do their chemical magic on those molecules to get a real synthetic oil. Now they are just highly refining mineral oil and are able to call it "full synthetic oil". A way cheaper process with lower performance qualities than true synthetic oil.

WHY SYNTHETIC OIL IS NOT SYNTHETIC ANYMORE !
 

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My understanding, based on research and conversations with an engineeering friend, is the critical aspect of synthetic oil is the friction modifiers. Synthetic oil maintains a consistent molecular structure for a much longer service interval. Basically oil changes from 10w-40 to 25wt as it breaks down (or whatever the middle point of the oil is). The base oils can vary along with the additive packages, which all affect how the oil performs and what specifications it meets. I have tried several and use Bel Ray Thumper (Synthetic Blend) because I have found my TW likes it and the improvememt I feel in shifting after an oil change with Rotella or Yamalube lasts 500 miles with the Bel Ray and less than half that with the other oils. They do make a full synthetic (Ester based?) but so far the blend seems to last in the TW really well. I am ready to change at 500 miles just for the pice of mind. Just my 2 cents :)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi Matt I am not sure if you waded all the way through the article I posted. It is kinda shocking but not really that what they are calling "full" synthetic oil is not really. All oils have an additive package including friction modifers that are pretty good. If the base oil is true synthetic it has a higher heat range before break down. Mobil 1 used to be a true synthetic base oil with those properties now it may not be. I think Bel Ray makes a true synthetic oil and it has a much higher cost. I appreciate your feed back on the oil you use. I use Castrol "Full" synthetic because 1. I thought it had a higher temperature break down point. 2 it does shift better. After reading this article the "full" synthetic oil I have been paying extra for for extra heat protection may not actually have better protection against heat break down than regular oil.
 
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i like the fact that you shared this article with us, but i won't be reading this one as i have found and use an oil i am very happy with. also it is one of the few oils i have tried that does not affect my clutch. i'm sure if i read this article i will be disappointed in the oil i use now, so i'll pass
 

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I did and have seen parts of that thread before (it is from 2000). There have been some changes to oils in the last 17 years and one of the issues that was just starting to show up in 2000 was reduced levels of ZINC. Oil manufactures seemed to try all sorts of tricks to meet the new specs and not destroy the still common flat tappet and older technolgy motors (TWs included��).This created all sorts of havoc with flat tappet cams (non roller). If you look at the breakdowns of oils, you can see that some do not use PAOs, but they are in fact synthetic (Ester based). I have found that splitting the difference (blended, high quality oil, meeting the specs for the motor I am running it in) seems to provide me the best value, if not ultimate performance. Many of the assertions made in the post are also no longer valid. Some manufacturers do specify synthetic. Many do specify longer oil change intervals with synthetic and several manufacturers of oil are more forthcoming with thier formulations. Bel Ray, for instance details the base stock and formulations in thier "full" synthetic and blend oils.

I know wikipedia can be wrong, but I found thier defintions interesting too- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

I am not advocating anybody use anything, just my two cents. I originally went for Rotella for a host of reasons, just on my bike, it went from fresh great shifting to gritty, hard shifting in 2 or 3 tanks of fuel. Thats not even two weekends, Bel Ray was still good at over 500 miles for me, changed it just to check the filter and screens.

I love oil threads btw!
 

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I will be keeping an eye on this thread as I was going to ask which oil/oils everybody here seemed to like the best. Thanks for the info so far.
 

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Same answers every time! Which oil to use is the same as Boxers or Briefs! Find which one you like and use or wear them. The real question or concern goes more to how often you change the oil or your underwear and keeping the level up. I prefer Fruit of the Loom but then nuts and not really fruits. Mobil 1 4TR has worked just fine for me and I recommend it to anyone who asks me which oil to use in the TW. My recommendation for your shorts is to change them regularly or at least get the kind that are reversible.

GaryL
 

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OK..The BEST oil for you Dub is ............... and if you add ............ it's even better!! There...I hope I've made everybody happy.:D
Cool! Happy Birthday!

GaryL
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Matt great reference there. I know the article is old. Here is the slippery slope as quoted.

"API Group I-, II-, II+-, and III-type mineral-base oil stocks are widely used in combination with additive packages, performance packages, and ester and/or API Group IV poly-alpha-olefins in order to formulate semi-synthetic-based lubricants. ""API Group III base oils are sometimes considered Fully synthetic, but they are still classified as highest-top-level mineral-base stocks. "" A Synthetic or Synthesized material is one that is produced by combining or building individual units into a unified entry. Synthetic base stocks as described above are man-made and tailored to have a controlled molecular structure with predictable properties, unlike mineral base oils, which are complex mixtures of naturally occurring hydrocarbons and paraffins.[6] [7]"

The sentence in the double quotes about API group III oil being called synthetic.
Quite the advertizing loophole don't you think?

I am not bashing any oil just the nomenclature. I too switched from a certain type of Rotella to Castrol Power 1"full"synthetic 4T because my bikes shift better and was hoping to get better oil breakdown protection from heat. If the base oil is a API type III and not an ester or PAO API type IV or V than I am not getting the protection I thought I was getting and which can be had for quite a bit cheaper in a regular 4T oil. BTW I now use Rotella in the diesel engine in my boat.

Gary's point about changing it is certainly very valid. I don't think you can go wrong with any oil rated for use in our bikes if the change interval is appropriate for the use. If you operate your bike in hot temps than a more frequent change is called for. Again I was hoping to get more protection in hot temps and now I am not sure that is the case. I changed my oil before Moab with around 500 miles on it because I knew we would be doing a lot of riding and the shifting was changing a little.
 

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Thanks! B.T.W. I do change my underwear more often than my oil.
:D, Good to hear! Now just keep your dipstick wet.

GaryL
 

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I watched a thread recently that actually said only about 3% of dino oil is in the oil you buy. It is the additives that make up the rest. I am happy with my oil at over 42000 miles on my Tdub.
 

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All I know is I notice a big difference in engine and transmissions smoothness, and it seems to hold up longer under prolonged stress. IE, better and worth it. Just my opinion, but I'm gonna keep buying it.
 

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As far as oil change in hot weather. Living in the Caribbean, I change it usually after 3000 miles. Ride my bikes regularly as a daily commuter. Not once an issue with the rather long intervals between changing oil. One bike now has 26k miles on it, other has 13k miles. I personally believe that the change intervals after i.e. 500 miles is rather excessive.

Matt great reference there. I know the article is old. Here is the slippery slope as quoted.

"API Group I-, II-, II+-, and III-type mineral-base oil stocks are widely used in combination with additive packages, performance packages, and ester and/or API Group IV poly-alpha-olefins in order to formulate semi-synthetic-based lubricants. ""API Group III base oils are sometimes considered Fully synthetic, but they are still classified as highest-top-level mineral-base stocks. "" A Synthetic or Synthesized material is one that is produced by combining or building individual units into a unified entry. Synthetic base stocks as described above are man-made and tailored to have a controlled molecular structure with predictable properties, unlike mineral base oils, which are complex mixtures of naturally occurring hydrocarbons and paraffins.[6] [7]"

The sentence in the double quotes about API group III oil being called synthetic.
Quite the advertizing loophole don't you think?

I am not bashing any oil just the nomenclature. I too switched from a certain type of Rotella to Castrol Power 1"full"synthetic 4T because my bikes shift better and was hoping to get better oil breakdown protection from heat. If the base oil is a API type III and not an ester or PAO API type IV or V than I am not getting the protection I thought I was getting and which can be had for quite a bit cheaper in a regular 4T oil. BTW I now use Rotella in the diesel engine in my boat.

Gary's point about changing it is certainly very valid. I don't think you can go wrong with any oil rated for use in our bikes if the change interval is appropriate for the use. If you operate your bike in hot temps than a more frequent change is called for. Again I was hoping to get more protection in hot temps and now I am not sure that is the case. I changed my oil before Moab with around 500 miles on it because I knew we would be doing a lot of riding and the shifting was changing a little.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Peter you are probably right that 500 miles is excessive, but we were gone 2 weeks to Utah and put @ 1000 miles on the bikes so I wanted to start fresh and not do a change while gone. I am not saying the oil I've bought is bad and doesn't do it's job. I don't like thinking I've bought one product when it isn't. Being duped into thinking that an API type III oil is a type IV or V oil with better performance when it isn't due to a nomenclature loop hole.
 
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