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Discussion Starter #1
For those of you know the Clark tank holds 2.8 gallons. I have never run it empty, but the last 3 tanks I rode until I had to switch to reserve. Took 2 gallons, and I went 185 miles.



Also when I did the oil change I switch to Amsoil and had used the Shell reg gas. I average 91 mpg on it since I switched. Don't know if it was the oil or the Shell gas or a combination of the two. I had used Loves gas up till then. I am running this tank on Loves gas to see if the mileage changes. The 81 mpg was what I had average before the oil change.



I might add this is in the southwest part of Arizona.



The TW I have in Illinois I also only got around 81 to 83 mpg.
 

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Not sure about my TW since I'm still under 1000 total miles on the Odometer, but my Honda GL500 always seemed to run better on Shell gasoline. Must be their additives.



Dan
 

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Its funny you say that. I was pushing empty today across from a shell station and filled up there. I always go to chevron because its by my house. On the way home I noticed that the slight surging I seem to feel about 50 mph was almost non existent. Maybe a coincidence but I definitely noticed a smoother run at that speed. I'll have to do some messing with different brands.



Not sure about my TW since I'm still under 1000 total miles on the Odometer, but my Honda GL500 always seemed to run better on Shell gasoline. Must be their additives.



Dan
 

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Gentlemen,



I am the owner/operator of Team CB Petroleum Properties. Over the years I have been a dealer for Mobil, Union 76, ARCO, and I am both a Chevron and Shell dealer currently. The base fuel blend in most areas is stipulated by local law (there are over 100 different blends of regular unleaded gas in the U.S.), The difference is in the fuel additives and detergents. The best additive/detergent is Chevron (including Chevron owned Texaco). The patented Chevron additive Techron is acknowledged as the gold standard by Porsche, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nissan, and Toyota. I know that the gas cap of Ford cars says they recommend BP (they get paid for that), but they do their 50,000 mile emissions testing with Chevron gasoline that they have to truck 900 miles to get it to Detroit as there are no Chevron stations in MI. Take it for what it's worth.



Chip
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well there is Chevron station in Quartzsite, but I don't think I will get a chance to use it before we head back home for the summer.



Don't know of any close to where I live in Illinois either, but it is certainly an interesting topic.



Chip can you say which of the diesel fuels have the best results?
 

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Chip can you say which of the diesel fuels have the best results?


The Chevron Oil Company does not refine diesel fuel (they do make Jet fuel which is highly refined diesel) and the diesel that Chevron Dealers like me sell is purchased by Chevron from other oil companies. There is no additive package currently used in diesel (it is currently being worked on) so I would buy diesel fuel based on price as long as it is from a trusted source (avoid bio diesel unless your car is designed for it). I would buy diesel from a discounter like Costco or a major truck stop. I would not buy gasoline from Costco as it contains no additives or detergents to remove carbon or clean injectors.



Chip
 

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Chip, glad you are here to provide input on Chevron/Texaco products. We don't have a local supply for our test program and the decision was made (against my input) to not test those products. I've (unofficially) brought Texaco/Chevron from Memphis on several occasions and it tests right up there with the Shell, Exxon, and Citgo fuels. Shell, Exxon/Mobil, and Citgo generally test better for efficiency and emissions than BP, Murphy (Walmart), or Huck's.



Sadly, none of the E10s we test are actually consistent batch-to-batch, solely due to varying ethanol and water content. When we remove the ethanol and water and restore the (R+M)/2 rating with toluene, the base fuels perform quite consistently batch-to-batch, though the inconsistencies brand-to-brand remain. We've done enough testing so that we can predict the dyno performance (hp, torque, efficiency, and emissions) by season and ethanol and water content. It is the inconsistency of ethanol and water contents that makes jetting to optimize performance with E10 quite impossible.



Sadly, the E0 fuels available from the various independent stations in this area all perform signifcantly better than any E10 no matter whose pump it is from. All are more consistent than any E10, with 9-37% improvement in efficiency. Since unbranded fuels tend to lack beneficial additives such as Techron, I do add polyether amine to the E0s I run in my own vehicles.



rmartin, your >12% increase in fuel efficiency that you believe is due to differences in fuel is not at all uncommon. Locally, E0 costs about $0.20/gallon (5.55%) more than E10 in adjacent pumps at the same station. Tdub consistently returns 75-80mpg with E0, but only 65-70mpg with the best E10, and 60-65mpg with the worst. That's in-town commuting and running errands. I'll happily pay 5.55% more for fuel that returns 30-35% better mpg with 7-10mph increase in top end performance. Keep in mind that Tdub is jetted a bit rich for E0 so she won't run lean if E10 happens to be the only fuel available. The differences would be greater if Tdub was actually jetted for maximum efficiency with E0. I think if more people would actually keep track of efficiency with different fuels in similar riding conditions, a groundswell of objection to forced use of bio-fuels would develop.
 

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I think if more people would actually keep track of efficiency with different fuels in similar riding conditions, a groundswell of objection to forced use of bio-fuels would develop.


Ethanol has been a politically driven disaster for motors of all types. In AZ we are forced to sell fuel 6 months of the year with 10% ethanol in it. Ethanol has only 66% as much energy per gallon as gasoline, it is highly corrosive, and it soaks up water like a sponge. A 4 to 5% drop in mileage is expected even in cars properly tuned for E-10. Taxi cabs operating out of the Phoenix Airport are forced BY LAW to use only E-85 which is sold by only 4 stations in the Phoenix area (including me). The cab drivers hate it as they get 35% less MPG and the E-85 only costs 20% less. I need to use all stainless tank sumps, pumps, nozzles, and hardware because that stuff eats regular fueling equipment. Almost 1 gallon of diesel and over 1000 gallons of water are used (farming) to produce 1 gallon of corrosive, inefficient Ethanol that has to be heavaly subsudized by taxpayers or that swill would never sell. I never use fuel with ethanol in it in my cars/motorcycles if I can avoid it even though that's what I have to sell at my stations.



Chip
 

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So then in layman's terms..what should we be running in the small 200cc engines? what octane?
 

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So then in layman's terms..what should we be running in the small 200cc engines? what octane?


Premium Unleaded, 91 or 93 octane, without Ethanol if you can find it, with ethanol if that's all that is available. In the Phoenix area during the winter months, all gasoline at all stations is 10% Ethanol.



Chip
 

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In Minnesota by state law all vehicles, except collector vehicles and small engine vehicles must use an ethanol added fuel (10%). We do have 91 octane premium non-ethanol available in some stations which I believe most people (including me) use in their motorcycles. I think requiring ethanol fuels is purely political as people here have clearly pointed out, and makes no sense either economically or environmentally. Not to offend any farmers here, but a friend of mine who is a farmer put it well when he said that the only good thing about the state ethanol requirement is that it at least requires farmers to do something for the subsidy.
 

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Ethanol is the modern version of CCC--a government make-work program for the chronically unemployable.




My parents crop lease 3100 acres to a farmer who grows corn for the local ethanol plant. Good money in it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Maybe the reason for my mileage increase is Arizona doesn't sell ethanol in the summer.



Chip Beck, since I am only a visitor here in Arizona, when do they stop the ethanol in the fuel?



It just says on the pump that up to 10% can be ethanol. That way in the summer when it has 0% they still have their butt's covered.



At home in Illinois I used to be able to 0%, but there pumps have it now.



I had a pickup that ran bad until I discovered that 0% made it run better.



There was a small engine place I used to go to, and people woud come in with small engine problems. First thing he would ask is where they get there fuel. He would fix their problem and tell them to get their fuel from another place than had 0%. I ruined the gaskets in a weed eater last summer, and started by the fuel in quart cans to keep from having to buy $30 worth of seals and labor.



One guy said isn't that real expensive, yes it was $3.99 a quart, but I only use maybe 1 to 2 quarts a year. It boils down to pay now or pay later. This way maybe I won't have all the starting problems.
 

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Maybe the reason for my mileage increase is Arizona doesn't sell ethanol in the summer.



Chip Beck, since I am only a visitor here in Arizona, when do they stop the ethanol in the fuel?



It just says on the pump that up to 10% can be ethanol.


rmartin,



Maricopa County, AZ has no ethanol in our gasoline from May 1 through Sept 30. The other 7 months we have 10% ethanol. FWIW, no oil company wants to put ethanol in their gasoline. It creates a number of problems for refineries, stations, and many vehicles. Oil companies are forced by law to use an ethanol blend in a misguided attempt to use less oil.



Chip
 

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Chip, do you think legislating the use of ethanol is energy positive or energy negative at this time? Do you think the energy balance will be improved over time?
 

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Chip, do you think legislating the use of ethanol is energy positive or energy negative at this time? Do you think the energy balance will be improved over time?


It is energy negative. And this is coming from one of the biggest E-85 retailers in AZ. If you take into account all of the energy (mostly diesel) to farm, fertilize, transport the corn, refine it, AND THEN, because ethanol can't be put through a pipeline like gasoline, E-85 must be trucked wherever it goes, ship the final product (which only gets 65% the fuel mileage of gasoline, the end product is energy negative and does nothing to ease our dependence on foreign oil. Even with massive taxpayer subsidies ethanol does not sell so governments force cabs and fleets to use it. 90+% of my E-85 customers are cab drivers who are forced to use it. When there is a viable substitute for oil, the free market will deliver it. There are massive oil deposits all over this country that we prohibit ourselves from drilling and using.



Chip
 

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The problem I have with selecting fuel for my bike is that I have the stock tank. It takes, at most, one and a half gallons.



I did the math once, and have since lost it, but I remember, given the average diameter and length of the hose, pipes, pump, etc. from the selector valve to the nozzle handle, the majority of the fuel I'm getting in my TW's tank was selected by the previous customer. So why bother selecting and paying for more expensive fuel? I do get higher octane fuel if the pump has separate nozzles for each type. I can then be sure of getting what I choose.
 

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Chip, I agree with your views on ethanol. Just another tax on the collective ignorance of Americans with the proceeds going to agribusiness campaign contributors.



Hmmm? Tdub runs fine on 87 octane (R+M)/2, and no better on 89, 91, or 93. In fact, on higher octanes than 87, I get a bog on the highway when rolling the throttle back on after a bit of compression breaking. This does not happen on 87, and the higher the octane rating, the worse the bog. Ethanol content doesn't seem to make any difference. Next time I have Tdub on the dyno I'll try various octanes from the same station to check for differences in power and efficiency.
 
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