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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Facebook rant on animals... (read if you're bored, I guess)...

EDIT: Sigh...okay, my post was reasonable/legit/etc, but it did have some minor religious references. I took those out, so hopefully it's all good now... I need to just start writing books or something; I need a proper channel for all my thoughts and rants and opinions and all of that.



DOG MEAT versus PIG MEAT
There is no real distinction between eating pigs or cows, or eating dogs or cats, except that different people tend to place different sets of values on different animals. Most Westerners are only appalled by the notion of eating dogs because they tend to place higher emotional/practical values on dogs (...what these animals can do for people: pets, guards, pest control...). It is easy to be extremely hypocritical in this regard without realizing it, because we are all, to some extent, products of our cultures, whether we like it or not. Still, people should think about such matters on a deeper level, and try to avoid knee-jerk reactions. It's one thing to be vegetarian and argue for avoiding all animal-flesh consumption (essentially, saying that all animals always carry a higher value than their nutritional value), but it just doesn't seem reasonable to campaign against dog-meat consumption while chowing down on a hamburger and bacon-cheddar fries. I don't have an answer for all of this, at all...but it's something to think about, and to not oversimplify or be hypocritical about.






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Kj Lindsted Warning: this film (relating to my post, above) is not pleasant -- graphic and disturbing images abound; it illustrates some uncomfortable (for many) facts about human interactions with animals. The film does contain some notable logical fallacies and false claims (for example, that humans are the only creatures who intentionally inflict pain for pleasure, or that "the value of animals is reduceable to their value relative to human interests" is erroneous -- in fact the very notion of other animals having value to humans is an anthropocentric notion, having no intrinsic, completely non-human "perfect standard" -- i.e. we can't really say whether the quoted words here are erroneous or not, because we only understand animals, and any concept of any sort of value that can be tied to them, in HUMAN terms...we can't truly judge anything by any reason other than our own), but overall seems largely fact-based, and is certainly thought-provoking. There is often a very fine line between what is seen as "right" and "good", and what is seen as horrifying and foul beyond the sickest imagination.https://123movies.io/movie/earthlings-21538/watching.htmlManage




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Kj Lindsted This article also goes well with this topic (seeming to debunk the notion that plants suffer in the same way animals do, although granted, this is just one article, and I have NOT extensively researched that particular topic): https://www.livekindly.co/plants-feel-pain/ . Honestly, a similar conclusion could probably be reached by performing a simple (though perhaps unethical) experiment: take a group of two to five year old children out to pick flowers, then take them to a slaughterhouse to watch pigs' throats get slit while they hang upside-down from sharp hooks; observe and record their reactions to each scenario (children are much more aware and intelligent than we often give them credit for being, but of course, such an experiment would likely be quite flawed, because even at those ages, children will have already experienced significant cultural indoctrination, which will have impacted their frames-of-reference, thereby shifting their reactions one way or another). God damn...no one fuckin even reads this shit. I feel like I'm just sitting here organizing my thoughts. This may as well be on a notepad. Maybe I should start a blog or something instead of thinking with my keyboard on Facebook. Merry fuckin Christmas, if anyone actually reads this deranged little rant.Manage




Do Plants Really Feel Pain? What Does Science Say? | LIVEKINDLY
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Kj Lindsted I've sometimes pondered if human life on Earth could be some sort of factory-farm (a-la the Wraith in "Stargate") or a clinical test administered by some greater being(s) or other human(s) in a position of total dominance, similar to the real situations depicted toward the end of "Earthlings". Would we know any better? I don't think that we would. Newborn pigs stuffed into crates must assume that their situation is just life -- the way things are, because they have never known anything else, right? And humans on Earth? If that were the case (Earth being the pig-crate, metaphorically speaking)... Maybe life as we know it is NOT the norm for humans; maybe it's not supposed to be all fucked up and riddled with all kinds of problems. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that pigs cannibalizing other pigs, starting from the other pigs' anuses, is not normal pig behavior...














 

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You sound similar to my 25 year old son. Very similar. I guess your writings depict your perceived reality and I am sure that there are many who share your thoughts. The question is what are you doing to change peoples hearts and minds? Or are you just fatalistic and allowing the chips to fall where they may? An awful lot of good in this world should you decide to search that out instead.



Tom
 

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KJ - you make a fair point few would dare to talk about

We live in a world where perceived injustice is over-ridden by so many different things according to your culture, and culture is something you learn, and not the innocence you were born with

There are more contradictions than you can shake a stick at, most of them born of "need", but then even those are often taken to extremes

But the issue is not just on the human side - often nature can be pretty cruel (if you choose to see it that way) - from animals to storms

We live on a violent planet, but maybe it's the curse of man to be the only living thing to have a conscience ............

How was you Christmas Turkey by the way ?
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
You sound similar to my 25 year old son. Very similar. I guess your writings depict your perceived reality and I am sure that there are many who share your thoughts. The question is what are you doing to change peoples hearts and minds? Or are you just fatalistic and allowing the chips to fall where they may? An awful lot of good in this world should you decide to search that out instead.



Tom
You pose difficult questions, Tom. I have in fact considered these questions quite a bit, and also the larger implications of similar logic applied to...other situations. My answers to both of your questions would be pretty complicated -- coming from someone who was raised vegetarian, but who has also been omnivorous (briefly tried strict veganism). The most honest answer at this point in my life, would be that I'm just not sure. I feel that it's easy to be torn in different directions (for example, I appreciate animal rescue videos on YouTube, but wonder if it doesn't make me hypocritical to both watch a video like that and eat a cheeseburger...OR is it just the way things are, and okay to enjoy BOTH the flavor of my cheeseburger and the pleasure of seeing a helpless street dog rescued and given a happy dog-life). I think that it does ultimately come down to either letting the chips fall as they may, or deciding to take a hard-line stance and defend it (doing what one can to change circumstances and the minds of others). I like to think of myself as highly logical, but this, for me, is a challenging thing to think about in that way, partly because emotions can, I would say, be considered as one of a number of logical factors (eg. people liking certain animals for companionship = largely emotion-based; companionship-value is one legitimate factor to consider). It is hard for me to say that I don't have a fully-formed opinion/perspective on this matter, and may never, but that is just the honest truth right now. It's sort of like solving a Rubix cube. I've fooled with them a little (was doing so yesterday evening for a little), but have never solved the puzzle (I know that I could just look it up, but for me that defeats the purpose), nor have I truly applied myself fully to the pursuit. A big part of the issue is whether to be vegetarian/vegan or not (ideally, I would like to choose one way or another, definitively, and then accord myself by whatever conclusion I reach, but I fear that is easier said than done). Even if one is vegan, there is still the issue of exercising power/dominance by spaying/neutering/euthanizing stray animals that no one has the time/money/drive to properly care for, or killing them, or just ignoring them and letting fate sort it out (this raises the debate about whether people should or should not care for animals -- in and of itself, intervening in any way can have implications which ultimately lead to animals living and dying... --kind of a babies-on-train-tracks dilemma, but with other animals). Sigh...these things do weigh heavily on me.

Purple: no turkey, but I understand your point. You also make a good point about this being a violent planet, and I think that may be central to a logical consideration of this topic... I did make and eat some very delicious chocolate-butterscotch fudge...

Merry Christmas to you guys, seriously :)
 

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The world is far from black and white. Often there is no right answer. Pondering the meaning of it all can give you a greater appreciation for the complexities of life.

I've always appreciated the hunter who respects their prey by challenging themselves in the hunt and takes a moment to honor the life they've taken.

Or the farmer who gives their livestock a higher quality of life before they meet the chopping block.

Either of which I kind of respect more then the masses who are disassociated with where their meat came from.

Then again most plants are more defenseless then animals...does their life have less value? More food for thought.
 

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Introspection throughout life is healthy, do not take the world as explained to you for granted. Find your own path, your own truths.
All lifeforms exist at the expense of others. Even the lowliest plants wage chemical and physical warfare in competition for sustenance and survival. Guilt for striving to survive by whatever path is unnecessary.
If in doubt as to what God, nature, moral or health concerns indicate what to eat simply look at your teeth. We are omnivores, those canine teeth didn't evolve to shred carrots.
Besides as an old cynical T-Shirt from a BBQ restaurant states: "If God didn't want us to eat meat why did he make it taste so good?"

This morning's does and yearlings look rather tasty to me, organic with no hormones or GMO feedstock.;) They enter winter fat and healthy yet cold, cougars, coyotes, bears and Buicks will take their toll. Some hunters and poachers will harvest others yet their natural life cycle continues. Genetic survival is the ultimate victory. Deer 12:27:17.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Fred: I do appreciate your input, and you make some good points; I just don't buy the "because it tastes good" argument. Cannibals say that human flesh tastes good. Child rapists say that sex with children feels good. Now, I am not trying to equate those things directly with non-human animal-flesh consumption (simply using other examples of that type of argument ["I do it because I like it, and it must be okay, because it feels good to me"] to show why I feel it is not a strong argument -- and I understand that the way you presented it may well not have been as a legitimate argument at all). I do indeed strive to find my own path, as I suppose we all must if we wish to survive.
 

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I like to tell people who eat beef, chicken, turkey from the grocery store, but won't eat bambi or thumper that they must be prejudiced against the grocery store meats.lol To each his or her own. I like rattlesnake, if it's prepared properly. I have a young friend who just bagged a nice buck with his compound bow, yet doesn't want his son to use a crossbow to hunt with because it has too much technical advantage. I told him he should not be allowed to use his compound bow, rather he should use a recurve bow without the mechanical advantage of the pulleys and such. All in the name of good argument. Just sayin'.
 

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Self reflection and soul searching can be very rewarding. Torturing oneself over their very existence is not terribly conducive to health or happiness. Trying to measure our impact on every little thing surrounding us will flat out drive you mad. Balance is the answer to most of life's questions in my experience. Spend your valuable energy seeking balance in life and happiness will follow.



Or not. No guarantees my friend. :D



Tom
 

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I am not bored either and I don't go on FB at all or Youtube very often. Hunting season is over and I did not bag a deer. I don't need the meat though I do love venison. Now my main concern is will I get one with the front bumper of my nice vehicle? Will the hungry deer come and eat the shrubs I spend hundreds of dollars on when the food in the woods is hard to get to. Will I find carcasses in the woods behind the house the coyotes got? Do coyotes even have the right to exist?

Not long ago I watched a hawk in the back yard swoop down and catch a dove and I called to my wife to see it. The hawk was on the ground with the dove in his clutches still fluttering and began to pluck every feather from the live doves body while the doves wings were still flapping. My wife said Go Do Something, that's horrible! I just said, "Hawks have to eat too"! Life is in fact a beach! We humans exist by the grace of God and by the food he provides for us which includes plants, fruits and animals. There is a great deal of truth in that saying "Kill or be killed". You live today because some ones have protected you throughout your life. You have been fed, medically cared for, educated and now you are on your own in a very big and very hostile world.

I don't honestly care what you eat. I don't honestly care what gender you or anyone assigns themselves, just drop your drawers and look down. Only two genders as far as I'm concerned. Sex, that has been going on since the very beginning and is exactly how we all got here. Culturally, we live in a country with strict laws but in other countries not so much. Sex with minors is and always has been an accepted practice in some cultures. We find it horrible because we have been taught it is taboo but not in all cultures. There were and still might be cultures in this world that sacrifice both animals and humans to unseen Gods. We can't fix it all and to think and feel is human but the human condition is different in a lot of regions. Dogs are pets here and food elsewhere. Cows are food here and worshiped elsewhere. Trees bring life and oxygen but they also build homes and bridges.

Thinking too deeply on many of these matters is sure to give you a brain cramp. Being conflicted in your own humanity is something you have to figure out on your own. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Grocery stores have numerous sections where you can find what ever it is you like to eat and you don't have to buy or agree with any of it. My best advice is "Live and let live".

GaryL
 

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I’ve seen Hawks in my garden on a regular basis, and occasionally piles of feathers where they make their kill – (usually pigeons ‘cos they’re fat and slow). I ruminated on this for a while, but came to the conclusion that Hawks have as much right to hunt to stay alive, as the pigeons do to be fat and cute

So – being me – I did some research – turns out that the Hawks are only successful on around 10% (or less) of their swoops, and risk significant injury if it goes wrong. Many Hawks die of malnourishment as a result of this – so it turns out that Mother Nature” is a cruel mistress

Two other things “local” to me – is my cat, and sheep and dogs. But first, let’s take a look at the cat

She hunts for sport, not for food – I’ve found her “tipping” a Rabbit last year (just for fun) – every time the bunny tried to move away, she’d swat its back end until it fell again. The damn thing was as big as her, but ill equipped to counter attack. Being a spoil-sport, I scooped her up, apologised to the rabbit, and locked her inside for a while. She has accounted for more small birds, voles, field mice etc than I care to think about – but she’s taken care of the (general or “common”) mouse population too. That’s the relationship between humans and cats, we keep them because they’re “stone cold killers”, pouncing on anything that moves. They in turn stay with us because where there’s food, there’s mice, and that equals sport to them – plus, we feed them anyway, and provide a warm dry lap from time to time

Our relationship with dogs however, comes from a different need – primarily the need for “warning”. In return for this, we feed them, cuddle them, call them George, and let them crap all over the place. But there’s one thing that sets cats and dogs apart – and that’s the way they kill

A cat will play with its food, or in the case of the big wild cats, go for the throat and hang on until the prey is dead. Only then will they chew on it. The wild cats will often teach their young to do this, although the “learning process” can be painful to watch at times

A dog however, is more clumsy. In Wales, many sheep per year are killed by dogs, and I was taught at an early age just how they do it – they bite at the stomach of the running sheep until it trips over its own entrails – not nice. I know that Hyenas are the same, and I’m guessing it’s the same for Coyotes

But to “judge” them is to apply our own standards – and that brings us back to the problem, and also brings up a question …..

Are we any better in a “wild” environment ? – hunting Lion for trophies, or Elephant for Ivory. Do we really need Alligator hand bags, or are we killing just for money now ?

It wasn’t that long ago that we “hunted” for slaves – (in almost every culture)

The evolution of civilisation is a work in progress, and we still have a long way to go – the evolution of animals (the hunters), is likely to never to be over – you can’t fight animal “instinct”, but you can fight “human” instinct

As humans, we’re on a path, but it’s a long narrow twisty one. How do you feel about North Korea at the moment ? – ready to nukem ? – all those deaths for one man ?

We are far from perfect – yet as long as we strive to be perfect, we will get there in the end, no matter how long the road is. Hang on to that vision, and pass it along to your kids – it’s the most valuable lesson we can teach them ……..
 

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I slew a big jar of peanut butter and gouged out a huge wad to smear on bread. I did not feel any shame for doing so. That peanut butter was raised and
made for me to eat for my own sustenance. I didn't have a license to do so but I did not care. I just scarfed it up.
I have done the same with Bambi and others with no ill thoughts. I do draw the line at consuming my own specie though.
I read your post but couldn't watch the video. It went from a photo of a pig to a load of clickbait crap that I didn't want to deal with.
 
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