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Discussion Starter #1
I guess I got my college for free. I joined the US Army and they paid for like five years of tuition. I had to kick in for room and board. Got a part time job. Seems like I was getting $332.00 a month as long as I carried 12 credits or more.

How's this new free college work for people who don't serve in the Armed Forces????
 

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Unsure. I completed an Associates in Computer Networking w/ post 9/11 GI Bill and am going back to school for a Bachelors starting in December (Western Governor's University for IT Security). The post 9/11 GI Bill is really nice. Much better than the old one.
 

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Free college comes right out of the pockets of working slugs like you and me!

When I got discharged and started going to college under my GI Bill benefits I was working full time in the NY Prison system as a guard on the 3-11 shift. Each morning I went to my classes and had to sit in them with convicts from the prison who were getting that Free College under the College Release program. Guards would drive them to the college each day and drop them off to spend the day in classes and pick them up later in the day to go back to prison. That program ended abruptly once they started realizing these convicts were committing crimes while out for the day at school.

GaryL
 

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How's this new free college work for people who don't serve in the Armed Forces????
Unless professors have agreed to work for free, textbook publishers have agreed to free books, utilities have agreed to provide free electricity and water to our universities, as well as support staff working for free because all their own personal debts have been forgiven, such as mortgages and rents...unless all that happens it won't be free. Nothing is free. As military, you paid dearly for your education and taxpayers owe you that debt. But for the general public to be able to waltz in and get a four year college degree for nothing...that part's a myth because the taxpayers will certainly have to pay.

Military service is well worthy, but simply being able to fog a mirror is not. My humble opinion. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well we had a discussion earlier and one reply was that colleges are like businesses and get money from companies and others for research. That perhaps they could charge more for the research and I guess that would pay for everybody's tuition, books and room and board.

It doesn't seem like it would work to me. Some people believe tat the government has unlimited resources, that they can print money, or increase taxes more. They are trying to discredit a Congress man and a Senator in my area, who are against free college tuition. Hell I would be for free college tuition but I just don't see the free part.

What am I missing????
 

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Everyone knows it comes from China. In my opinion college isn't for everyone... or really that many people. There is no sense in going to college and getting a useless degree (there are many out there) only to be in debt at the end with no prospect of a job. Technical education is much more important to me and I wish the counselors at my high school would have discussed that option, but the last year and a half of HS was only college college college, you need to go or you won't get a job, everyone goes to college that's how you know you can get a job and be successful, you need to decide your major, what do you want to do for the rest of your life, you can always go back and get another degree, technical school won't have a job waiting on you, why would anyone want to be a mechanic, carpenter, HVAC technician, or any other sort of technician, I think I made that point. College should not be free because everyone should not go to college. educational inflation is a problem, and I DON'T mean people are getting smarter and that's a problem, I mean that people aren't any smarter for going to college, it's a business and the actual education is a fairly low priority. It has come to the point of having to have a degree to wait tables LITERALLY, I know people who have business management degrees, philosophy(bull crap) degrees, and other useless degrees that do wait tables. and on the other hand I know technicians that have no degree and a tech education that are doing what they love and making great money doing it, those people also have skills, they know how to do things and doing things seems to help REAL education, they are much more intelligent than most college educated people I meet.

So why do we need free college? We don't. (I am in college btw pursuing civil engineering) If you go to college, I believe you need to study something relevant and when doing so should have a job plan. Why? Because you would be able to pay off your debt to the college. I also believe that technical education needs to come back to our high schools and be encouraged because that is the best way to figure out what you want, why not be a receptionist or a welder, or a carpenter or mechanic for a few years after high school to put things into perspective? And if you love it, great, and if you don't, go to college for something that can get you ahead and where you want to be. And I can say Philosophy or Music will not do that. I stared as a music major :bs: After a year of that, I realized that it was a pointless endeavor and only creating debt, so I quit and started roofing and framing, paid off my debt, and am now going back to school for real and getting a real education.

Sorry for the rant and I hope I wasn't too redundant, I just wanted to try to make the point.
 

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I agree with your post for the most part, Tallahasseetw.

Philosophy degrees and such as that can be a great lead in to a Graduate or Doctoral level which needs very good critical thinking skills, particularly parsing convoluted arguments (i.e., Law, etc.). For the most part, most people do not benefit from college when one looks at the ROI for a lot of soft degrees. There used to be a time when a man could provide for his family by working his way up through a company, not needing a degree. Honestly, I would trace this fascination with "college" back to the ww2 generation who, like myself, flooded the market with degrees due to the GI Bill.

Also, I don't hold my entire college experience thus far in much esteem. I am medically retired from the Army and between my retirement and the post 9/11 GI Bill $, through some frugal budgeting, I was able to get through all of my Associates without working. I busted my butt and got a 3.95GPA, but school was my only focus. My hat really goes off to the folks who stayed with me in the classes while focusing on a job, school, family, etc. I'll finally get to experience that with my pursuit of the BS in IT Security. However, it will still be unorthodox as Western Governor's University follows an at-own-pace concept with only one class at a time. Should allow me to blow through the degree as I only have 48 credits left to complete.

But the idea of not everyone going to college means we need to realize not everyone needs to go to all of high school as traditionally done. I would prefer that if you don't pass entrance exams to 11th grade, you're off to trade school. And really, it might even be better to have such that if you don't pass a certain level to go to 9th grade, you come out of "high school" with 4 years of trade school and being at a Journeyman's level in something.

Throwing money at failure is just stupid.
 

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CS, I agree with you. and there are many ways to skin a cat, and there are plenty of problems with the system because public education systems has turned into capitalist education systems. So So many problems... Standardized testing, no child left behind (just all of the rest held back) and many other things. I could go on all day. And I do agree with you that those degrees hold merit for higher education, but one would have to have a plan of higher education with a job prospect at the other end to pursue it in the first place, I hope that made sense, kinda what I was alluding to in my first post but I don't think i got totally there.
 

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Trying to get this across to my 6yo.

No free lunch.

Someone's payin, and wanting something in return.



As far as I'm concered, the only 2 things in this here world that are free are hair and fingernails.

And even then, it isn't always free.

-

Ya know the difference between a good haircut and a bad one?

-

A week

;)
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
My daughter was a straight "A" student all through grade and high school. In Michigan they used to have a program where you could prepay your children's tuition from the day they were born. We were in the process of purchasing a house as we had just moved and added into the mortgage another $5000 at the time for four years of tuition at any Michigan University institution. What an investment that was. She was two years old at the time.

Well when she graduated high school she decided to take up Women's Fashion Design. "No shit" says I. I bit my friggin tongue right in half.... About a year into this field of study I suggested that she seek a summer job, an internship, with someone with the same degree, to see what she could expect for career prospects. Searching through the college she found one. The person headed the Women's Apparel Department at Macy's. I had to get up and drive her to be at work at 3:30 AM every morning so she could stock shelves and dress mannequins in the window displays.

I could see the vision of what a glorious and fun filled career this was going to be was starting to blur. One night, long after my tongue had healed, I asked her why don't she at least consider something else. She replied to me, "Dad, You always said do something I like doing, Something that interests me and is fun."

I said, "I know. I should have taken up beer drinking and motorcycle riding when I went to college. BUT YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T OFFER ANY PROGRAMS IN BEER DRINKING AND MOTORCYCLE RIDING. ....SO I TOOK UP ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING SO I COULD AFFORD BEER AND MOTORCYCLES, ...AND YOUR TUITION TOO!!!

Well she was crying, mother was crying, I felt like a friggin heal....

A month later she announced she was switching majors, ....going to be a doctor.... "No shit" says I.

She's in her third year of residency, $200,000 in debt, in spite of me picking up her grad school tuition. She's an ophthalmologist, AND BY GOD DON"T CALL HER AN OPTOMETRIST!

She'll pay that 200k off in two years once she's ready to start her practice.
 

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Free schooling.

Other countries - university is mostly free for the students, there are some cost, but nobody spends 200k ( loans or out of pocket ) to become a doctor. Or 100K for an art degree. In the US, the education system is almost a financial printing press. Colleges and universities already get TONS of money from the government. They also get private contributions, have endowments and contributions from companies they do research for. And the BIG one - Health Insurance Companies. Why are many hospitals "University Health Care, affiliated or owned by the University. because....CASH COW. They use this money for many things. Like the college presidents salary ( 1+ mil) deans (150k) footballs coaches ( the top 10 make over 5 mil per year each ) professors 60-500k per year.
How does football add to educational, it doesn't. it's part of the money machine. ( but I'm no sports fan at all ).
A college in ( I believe New Hampshire ) just brought a new 2 million dollar SCOREBOARD. Value to education Zero.
Interesting how you can't erase or restructure College Loans ( private ) via bankruptcy. Because colleges and banks lobbied to make it illegal. And yet you can settle tax debt with the government for a settlement of pennies on the dollar, but not a Student Loan.

The problem with this is that lots of kids get sucked into loans, many of these loans are border line predatory and the college knows that the payback will be difficult. then because of life ( health, kids, wife, parents sick, dog dies ) whatever they can't finish school and yet have 50k worth of loans at 600 a month for 20 years. And end up with a 400.00/ week job that doesn't have health care so there goes another 400 / month.

When someone receives an education, they are worth more to society in general, cost less to society in almost every regard and benefit not only themselves but their offspring too. I would much rather my tax money go to education than anything else. Costa Rica dissolved their military and invested the money in healthcare, education, and environment. It seems to have worked very well for them. How often do you hear Costa Rica in the news. They have been almost 70 years without a military ( 1/3 the life of the US ).

Every US government entity thinks they just can't do with less, but they could and that money could easily go to education. I was at the Tax office today ( paying ) and in a town 25,000. Sitting around city hall were about 40 city cars and SUVs . That doesn't include the county offices ( across the street ) because the city and the county are different and everything is duplicated. Every department has multiple cars instead of a motor pool. because nobody wants to be inconvenienced or have to schedule their comings and goings. I would rather pay more in taxes for less services and have that money put someone through school. Heck the money that goes to private incarceration facilities would pay for schooling. Would you rather hire someone who went to jail or someone who went to school for free.

If someone wants to pay out of pocket for a private college that's fine too. But state owned, state schools and community colleges should be free for 2 years ( at least ) for anyone who wants to attend. The option for technical school for those who want a trade should exist for those who want that too.

Almost All the name brand universities get over 150mil a year each in donations alone and have billion dollar endowment trusts.

Wealthy folks certainly don't pay for their kids to attend colleges. Donate a mil and your kid goes for free, then write off the mil as a tax donation.




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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Trailwinder,

I don't believe you are looking at the whole picture or have little experience of how things really work. Have you ever attended university?

First off let’s talk strictly about public or state owned college institutions. I think we could both agree that private colleges can and do charge whatever they want. ….unless you’re for abolishing free enterprise completely in exchange for socialism.

Any public (state owned) university that has cash cows like a hospital, uses the monies generated by those programs to run the institution and pay the cost for those facilities, and services. Sports programs are in fact also cash cows. University of Michigan Football not only supports itself, the scholarships of the players, the facilities to house the events, salaries for coaches, score boards, etc. etc. etc. it supports the majority of the not so popular sports like swimming, lacrosse, baseball, women’s basketball, etc. etc. etc. but also goes on to contribute millions, at least 3.5 million when I was attending classes there, to the general scholarship fund. THAT LOWERED MY TUITION DIRECTLY! The funds from those “cash cows” is already going to lower tuition.
Other colleges that don’t have such high value teams don’t pay their athletes tuition. They get nothing. I know. I have nephews that have played at the college level and were starters and they got nothing save some extra tutoring when needed. Otherwise all ticket sales and revenues from the venues went to their upkeep and costs.
I agree with student loans being predatory but the lenders are backed and regulated by the Federal government and pretty much any student, even one majoring in underwater basket weaving is going to get a student loan. If they made it an easy out for these loans every college educated person out there would/could declare bankruptcy the second they had their diploma in hand. How long do you think it would take before there was no one willing to lend to students?
When you go to pay your local taxes you are more than likely going to the County Court house. Those branches of government are paid for with property taxes, taxes on real estate and businesses assets. They already support the education at your local schools.

Do you realize that 943,000 associate's degrees; 1.8 million bachelor's degrees; 778,000 master's degrees; and 177,000 doctor's degrees are expected to be awarded by the end of 2016. At $22,000 a year for tuition and living that’s $81,000,000,000 a year, 81 billion dollars ….JUST FOR THE GRADUATING CLASS! You have no concept, not a clue, no idea what is possible and to think that the government will just crap more money so your pipe dream can become a reality is a false hope that will crush this countries hard working, tax paying people. California had such a program but they had to cease it do to the burden it put on the tax payers and corporations there.
 

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Trailwinder,

I don't believe you are looking at the whole picture or have little experience of how things really work. Have you ever attended university?

Yes, have a masters in business.

First off let’s talk strictly about public or state owned college institutions. I think we could both agree that private colleges can and do charge whatever they want. ….unless you’re for abolishing free enterprise completely in exchange for socialism.

Public / Private, nothing changes. Just like public health care, you don't have to use it. You don't have to send your kids to public school. Private school is certainly considered "better" education for kids, it will continue to have a prestige factor for college grads too.

Any public (state owned) university that has cash cows like a hospital, uses the monies generated by those programs to run the institution and pay the cost for those facilities, and services. Sports programs are in fact also cash cows. University of Michigan Football not only supports itself, the scholarships of the players, the facilities to house the events, salaries for coaches, score boards, etc. etc. etc. it supports the majority of the not so popular sports like swimming, lacrosse, baseball, women’s basketball, etc. etc. etc. but also goes on to contribute millions, at least 3.5 million when I was attending classes there, to the general scholarship fund. THAT LOWERED MY TUITION DIRECTLY! The funds from those “cash cows” is already going to lower tuition.

[Football supports the others. Maybe, but actually the schools were spending money on football and not funding other sports or women's only sports federal law had to be established to make schools spend equally on men's and women's sports and fund sports other than football]

Other colleges that don’t have such high value teams don’t pay their athletes tuition. They get nothing. I know. I have nephews that have played at the college level and were starters and they got nothing save some extra tutoring when needed. Otherwise all ticket sales and revenues from the venues went to their upkeep and costs.

I agree with student loans being predatory but the lenders are backed and regulated by the Federal government and pretty much any student, even one majoring in underwater basket weaving is going to get a student loan. If they made it an easy out for these loans every college educated person out there would/could declare bankruptcy the second they had their diploma in hand. How long do you think it would take before there was no one willing to lend to students?

[Excellent idea, except it wouldn't work that way, just because you file a ch7 or 13 bankruptcy it does not absolve you of all debts and a repayment plan is adopted for a 5 or 7 year repayment, also often times certain debts are excluded from the filing for different reasons and circumstances. Like you can exclude the car or / and house and keep paying on the car and house and keep those assets. You don't just fill out a form and your debts are gone, it involves being qualified to file, lawyers, court hearings and a decree by a federal district judge.]

When you go to pay your local taxes you are more than likely going to the County Court house. Those branches of government are paid for with property taxes, taxes on real estate and businesses assets. They already support the education at your local schools.

[ Ipay my primary house taxes to the City, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the county. I pay business and property taxes to the county where they are located. Most cities have nothing to do with the county they reside in. Except Miami - Dade county which when Miami had financial problems, they decided duplication of government was stupid and combined their operations. It's much better. Too much duplication of assets and the waste associated with that duplication. ]

Do you realize that 943,000 associate's degrees; 1.8 million bachelor's degrees; 778,000 master's degrees; and 177,000 doctor's degrees are expected to be awarded by the end of 2016. At $22,000 a year for tuition and living that’s $81,000,000,000 a year, 81 billion dollars ….JUST FOR THE GRADUATING CLASS! You have no concept, not a clue, no idea what is possible and to think that the government will just crap more money so your pipe dream can become a reality is a false hope that will crush this countries hard working, tax paying people. California had such a program but they had to cease it do to the burden it put on the tax payers and corporations there.
[The government is not going to crap more money, the money is already there it just needs to be used better.
Do you want to pay for housing someone in jail, stuck at a low paying job vice a career. or would you rather that person get educated and make a better life. Low paying jobs are perfect for HS kids, retired persons wanting to make a little extra and college students while attending free school to better them selves and move on.

Do you have any clue that the F-31 strike fighter project was 163 Billion Over budget.

We spend 600 Billion on military expenses every year.
That's 600,000,000,000. So if a tiny slice of that went to education ?

it may cost the US taxpayers 600 billion to bale out the UMWA pension fund. - a private pension fund.

It may cost 600 Billion to deport 11 million illegal aliens next year.

Here is us compared to other countries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Don't tell me 81 Billion a year can be spent on free college education. In fact based on how freely we divvy out 600 Billion it looks like we could easily house and feed those students also. The long term benefits of better educated people making better health decisions, better environmental decisions. Better life choices seems like a good use of 81 Billion to me.


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Discussion Starter #15
Hey, If you want to raise your taxes, you want to have less discretion over how you spend your own money, you think it's worth while for this endeavor, then by all means, go ahead.

Just don't force it on me. If your so benevolent, give up all your shit for the betterment of mankind.

I choose to take care of myself and my own. That way I KNOW the money is being spent right.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
You don't even have a clue, that what you are doing is encouraging, subsidizing, promoting the evolution of non-performing, low productive, substandard evolution of mankind.

Yet I think you're not a Christian, or believe in God, and think that evolution is the natural power in the Universe.

Am I correct?
 

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Hey, If you want to raise your taxes, you want to have less discretion over how you spend your own money, you think it's worth while for this endeavor, then by all means, go ahead.

Just don't force it on me. If your so benevolent, give up all your shit for the betterment of mankind.

I choose to take care of myself and my own. That way I KNOW the money is being spent right.
Reel Em In :blob10:
 

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The proposed legislation to bail out the UMWA was 1 billion dollars and was blocked by a Republican. The coal industry has been regulated out of profitability "there are other factors as well" but stricter regulations have taken the largest toll in the last decade.

Welfare is the single largest budget item in government spending, not the military.

It now takes two years of college JUST to educate students to the EXACT SAME level as a high school graduate in the 1980's. Should we add those two years of college tuition to the cost per student for a high school degree?

Yes, defense spending often has huge overruns BUT look at the schools we are building!!! Average cost of $300 a square foot!

Next?





Tom
 

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Keep it on track without disrespecting others opinions please.
Just so long as OPINIONS don't replace FACTS that is solid advice. :angel7:



Tom
 
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