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I thought I would start this new link.



Below is the fuel mileage on my tw since I bought it with 395 miles on it Jan 10, 2011. I always try to hold the bike up right when filling it. I just copied it from the spread sheet, and rounded to hundredths. All fuel 87 octane. I think they are all E10. Forgot to check the Chevron. The ones not lable for brand were either, Shell, Texaco or Loves. I never recorded them. It just depended which end of town I was at when I needed fuel.



As one guy said who knows what is in the hose before the fuel I paid for.



As I said on the Clark tank post. The only thing I did was change oil at 962 to Amsoil 15w40. This last tank fuel I kind of kept track of the riding. Of the 186 miles, probably 50 miles were in the desert on gravel type roads and slowing down going into washes. 120 riding around town less than 35 mph, and the rest over 45 on highways.



odometer / miles / gallons / average that tank / brand



0511 / 116 / 1.622 / 71.52

0657 / 146 / 1.936 / 75.41

0778 / 121 / 1.436 / 84.26

0874 / 96 / 1.146 / 83.77

1036 / 162 / 1.953 / 82.95

1183 / 147 / 1.619 / 90.80

1356 / 173 / 1.894 / 91.341

1542 / 186 / 2.029 / 91.67 / Shell

1714 / 172 / 1.779 / 96.68 / Loves

1879 / 165 / 1.74 / 94.83 / Chevron

Chevron



86.51 mpg since I bought it.
 

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Very interesting information.



I always get about 70 miles to the gallon on average. I have yet to break 100 miles to change to reserve.



I just purchased a gallon of Rotella 6T for my 2000 mile oil change and I hope I get some results like you on the move from dino to syn.



I'll keep an eye on it.



If anyone is interested (O'Reily aka Kragen) has rotella on sale right now for $17.99 a gallon 6T and 10.99 a gallon for dino. Also Mobil1 Motorcycle and VTwin for $7.99 a quart.
 

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Rotella isn't synthetic. It used to be, but these days Rotella uses a de-sulfured dino base and calls it synthetic. See the blurb on the bottle that says "low emissions" and all the chatter in the advertising about "low ash additive technology"? That means little protection for your flat cam followers. Rotella ain't what it used to be.



With stock jetting and mild riding, cruising around in the 35-45mph range on pavement or easy graded dirt and gravel roads, Tdub has returned 111mpg on E0, 91mpg on E10. WFO with a load of camping gear into a 30+mph headwind at altitude in 4th gear at 45mph on E10 returned 44mph. That's her best and worst.



martin, if you have a choice, try different sources for fuel. Some are more efficient than others.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Those are different sources of fuel. I just never recorded them until the last few fill ups. I weigh 260. I am not trying to see what I can get, but some have asked what I have been doing. I just out to have a good time, and kill time here in the desert, until the weather settles down in Illinois.



I always knew E0 was better, but it is so hard to find anymore.
 

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I'm between 58-62mpg. Almost every tank. With the filling variances from tank to tank I'd say 60mpg is the long-term average, I used to keep track but then gave up when the stock tank needed filling every day...too many receipts and miles to keep track of
That's commuting to and from work, only time I spend below 55mph is when accelerating from the stop lights and my neighborhood. I'm happy with it for my conditions. Finally found an E0 station somewhat near me so we'll see what that brings me, unfortunately it's in the opposite direction of where I work so not sure how often I'll be stopping there. Gotta keep my eyes peeled for a different station.
 

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Can you elaborate some? I looked on the bottle I just purchased and the words "low emission" and "ash" are nowhere on the label.



It stated "full synthetic base oil". What does that mean then? American marketing trick?



I'm curious.



Rotella isn't synthetic. It used to be, but these days Rotella uses a de-sulfured dino base and calls it synthetic. See the blurb on the bottle that says "low emissions" and all the chatter in the advertising about "low ash additive technology"? That means little protection for your flat cam followers. Rotella ain't what it used to be.



With stock jetting and mild riding, cruising around in the 35-45mph range on pavement or easy graded dirt and gravel roads, Tdub has returned 111mpg on E0, 91mpg on E10. WFO with a load of camping gear into a 30+mph headwind at altitude in 4th gear at 45mph on E10 returned 44mph. That's her best and worst.



martin, if you have a choice, try different sources for fuel. Some are more efficient than others.
 

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I'm between 58-62mpg. Almost every tank. With the filling variances from tank to tank I'd say 60mpg is the long-term average, I used to keep track but then gave up when the stock tank needed filling every day...too many receipts and miles to keep track of
That's commuting to and from work, only time I spend below 55mph is when accelerating from the stop lights and my neighborhood. I'm happy with it for my conditions. Finally found an E0 station somewhat near me so we'll see what that brings me, unfortunately it's in the opposite direction of where I work so not sure how often I'll be stopping there. Gotta keep my eyes peeled for a different station.


I usually fill up a couple of 5 gallon jugs and use those to fill the TW. Otherwise, the gas station people start to know me by name. Just a thought, if you've got a way to get the 5 gallon jugs to and from the station.



I tend to get something barely in the 60's (E10). I'm a fairly big guy, and I tend to sit bolt upright. I may try riding in a full race tuck and see if I can get closer to the mileage some of you are getting.
 

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Can you elaborate some? I looked on the bottle I just purchased and the words "low emission" and "ash" are nowhere on the label.



It stated "full synthetic base oil". What does that mean then? American marketing trick?



I'm curious.


Classic American marketing trick. It's all in the definition of "synthetic".
 

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Can you elaborate some? I looked on the bottle I just purchased and the words "low emission" and "ash" are nowhere on the label.



It stated "full synthetic base oil". What does that mean then? American marketing trick?



I'm curious.


The original and true synthetic base oils were and still are made from various esters. Then technology was developed to remove sulfur from dino oil, resulting in a higher quality dino base oil. This desulfured dino oil was called "synthetic" by several companies, including Shell. Mobil sued Shell and other providers of this modified dino oil for false advertising and lost. That doesn't change the fact that this dino-based "synthetic" oil is still nothing but a modified dino oil, albeit a high quality one. It is still not synthetic, and does not have the properties of an ester-based synthetic.



Visit the Rotella T6 website for the phrases that indicate an oil is not suitable for motorcycles. From the Rotella T6 webpage: "Shell Rotella® T6 is formulated with reduced levels of ash, phosphorous and sulfur to help maintain the efficiency of the latest vehicle-emissions technologies." There ya go.



Also, peruse all those certifications Shell claims for Rotella T6. Se the SM and SL API grades? To earn those grades, an oil has to contain very limited amounts of the zinc and phosphorous componjents that provide extreme pressure protection. Any oil that is rated SL or SM by definition cannot contain those protective molecules in sufficient quantity to protect flat tappet valve trains.



That isn't to say an oil without those additives won't provide protection--many ester-based true synthetics will do so without the additives because of the superior properties of ester-based synthetic base oils. Dino base oils, not even the desulfered dino base oils sold as synthetic, do not possess those protective properties.



Anywho, Rotella is intended for use in low rpm diesel engines in the first place. Personally, I don't own a low rpm diesel engine. OEM requirements for oils have become exceedingly complex. Oil perfect for one vehicle can be totally inadequate for another. Mobil makes and markets at least 21 different distinct varieties of Mobil 1 true synthetic oils specifically for road-going vehicles. Shouldn't we pick those best suited for our specific vehicles' needs? Run an oil specifically formulated for motorcycles with flat tappets, combined sumps, and wet clutches. Saving a $ or $$ on an oil change isn't worth the risk the way oils have been specializing the past couple years.
 

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I usually fill up a couple of 5 gallon jugs and use those to fill the TW. Otherwise, the gas station people start to know me by name. Just a thought, if you've got a way to get the 5 gallon jugs to and from the station.



I tend to get something barely in the 60's (E10). I'm a fairly big guy, and I tend to sit bolt upright. I may try riding in a full race tuck and see if I can get closer to the mileage some of you are getting.


I used to do the 5 gallon jug trick, but this year I went for the XT225 4.1 gallon Clarke tank. Problem solved!
 

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I just filled up with gas again. It doesn't seem to matter which brand of fuel I use for the mileage. I think it is the synthetic oil that made the difference. That is when the mileage went up.



It has been 90 to 96 with synthetic oil, 75 to 84 with whatever was in it when I bought it.
 

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I've been averaging anywhere from 65 to 75 mpg, running on E10 87 octane, and anywhere from 35 mph up to 60 mph (when the road/TW allow me). That's running with Honda VR4 10w40
 

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60-70 for me; and lower on trips (luggage and panniers).



Still, I'm happy with that; despite it just about equalling the amount the car uses.
 

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I just filled up with gas again. It doesn't seem to matter which brand of fuel I use for the mileage. I think it is the synthetic oil that made the difference. That is when the mileage went up.



It has been 90 to 96 with synthetic oil, 75 to 84 with whatever was in it when I bought it.
Supposedly, synthetic oil reduces friction, which reduces fuel consumption. I'm not surprised at the improvement. I've seen changes in fuel efficiency among different oils in other vehicles. I'll start checking Tdub's efficiency in daily usage again and see if there is an improvement since I switched top Mobil 1.
 

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I know the conversation is on syn oils but isnt rotella 15w40 certified for bikes now or jaso? Which mobil 1 do you run qwerty?
 

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I know the conversation is on syn oils but isnt rotella 15w40 certified for bikes now or jaso? Which mobil 1 do you run qwerty?
Some Rotellas are JASO MA, some not, there are only 10-15 different Rotellas. Sadly, no Rotella is synthetic anymore. They're all de-sulfered dino oil. It's a very high quality dino oil, but it's still dino oil.



JASO MA cert has to do with compatibility with wet clutches. Oils that earn the "Energy Conserving" stamp are loaded with additives to increase lubricity. Dino oils need a much higher concentration of additives to be "Energy Conserving" than do ester-based synthetics. Unfortunately, these "Energy Conserving" additives are death to wet clutch plates because the additves seem to love to stick to the fiber plates in the clutch. Never, ever use any dino oil labeled "Energy Conserving" in any case with a wet clutch. "Energy Conserving" additives are EVIL!



On the other hand, virtually all new cars and trucks have gone to roller tappets. Therefore, new cars and trucks do not need additives to provide the "Extreme Pressure" protection for flat tappets and cam lobes. "Extreme Pressure" additives are quick death to the new diesel engine particulate traps, so truck builders want these removed from oil. Since these additives tend to end up in the catalytic convertors and clog them up, automakers have pushed to have these additives removed from oils. So, a new marketing phrase was invented for needle-dicks who try to compensate by commuting in their dually crewcab turbo-diesels to get the right oil: "Low Emission". Any dino oil labeled "Low Emission" may not contain enough "Extreme Pressure" additives to protect the cam lobes and followers.



This is where the API certifications come in. API certs use two letters to denote oil quality. "Sx" is for gas engines. "Cx" is for diesel engines. "x" is replaced by another letter. SA was first to meet a set of standards. SB was next, and met all SA standards plus more. SC met all SA and SB standards plus more. SD met all SA, SB, and SC standards plus more. Pretty much, the further along the alphabet the second letter, the better the quality of oil, and since every new certification met all the standards of previous certifications, you could run the new oil in old engines with no harm done, and maybe even with a gain in efficiency or engine life. This trend to constantly improve oil without sacrifice is called "backwards compatibility".



Unfortunately, along came the "SL" designation, which required a reduction in additives that lent oil its "Extreme Pressure" attributes. Therefore, "SL" oils were not automatically backwards compatible with oils with earlier certs, and for the first time, the newer grade oil cannot always replace the older oils in functionality. Later certs (SM, SN) have further reduced permissable levels of "Extreme Pressure" additives. Therefore, any dino oil with an API grade of SL, SM, SN, or newer does not have sifficient extreme pressure additives, as far as I've been able to find out.



People rebuilding/restoring classic hotrod and performance engines with flat tappets quickly found out a new cam and lifters can be wasted in under 1000 miles without these additives. Even factory high performance rebuilds are dying early.



So, the oil companies found themselves in a pickle: how to meet the demand for lower emissions and better efficiency and still meet the demands of the flat tappet fanatics? There are several solutions.



First, specialization. Oil companies began marketing specialty oils for specific niches. Some companies actually put different blends in different packages and marketed to specific niches. Other companies just dumped the same blends in different packages and marketed them to different niches, with low volume niches paying a higher price. Buyer beware, and all that jazz.



Second, different additives. These work great, but are very expensive. Little will cause a bottle of oil to collect dust on store shelves quicker than a higher price than the oil next to it. Not good marketing. Other than some extreme niche specialty oils, this option is no longer practiced.



Third, higher quality base oils. Base oil is the raw juice with which additives are blended. The better the quality of the base oil, the better and wider ranged its attributes, and the less additives are required. Hence, 3 basic types of base oils: dino, the cheapest, de-sulfered dino, the mid-price option, and ester-based synthetic, the most expensive. Straight up, you get what you pay for with base oils.



Take your additive-laden dino oil blend, mix with a like volume of ester-based synthetic base, and the result is an oil that will perform as well as the original dino blend, but with only half the additives. This blend is called "semi-synthetic". Alternatively, take your de-sulfered dino oil, add half the normal amount of additives, and the oil still performas as well as the original dino oil with its full additive package. These blends are also called "semi-synthetic".



Well, they used to be. Then there was a big lawsuit and it was decided by a bunch of justices that don't even drive, much less change their oil, that de-sulfered dino oil could be called "synthetic" for marketing purposes. Hence, Shell decided it was cheaper to de-sulfer dino oil than to synthesize real synthetic oil, and switched all its "synthetic" base oils to de-sulfered dino oil. Therefore, Rotella is not "synthetic" at all, it really is a high quality dino base oil.



Anywho, further regulation to reduce emissions prompted more pressure on oil companies to provide car builders with oils with even lower effects on emissions levels. Therefore, blenders had to use even less of the cheap "Extreme Pressure" additives and replace them with higher cost additives, so the price of auto oils increased. As if that wasn't bad enough, other regulations about fleet fuel efficiency required additives to improve fuel economy. These additives worked by making the oil more slippery, and killers of wet clutches.



So, this is how modern auto oils became unfit for TWs. Now, keep in mind, even Rotella has gone through these changes. Rotella is designed for diesels that turn 1/3 the rpm of a TW. Older diesels turned only 1/5 the rpm of a TW. These slow engine speeds do not require very stiff valve springs. Hence, the "Extreme Pressure" these valve trains are subject to simply isn't very extreme. Why would Shell blend an oil needing expensive additives to resist "Extreme Pressure" for engines in which "Extreme Pressure" doesn't occur. Think about that a while, Rotella lovers. Same goes for aviation oils.



Mobil took a different approach from virtually all the other major oil companies to meet the needs of a market demanding a variety of oil blends to meet a variety of operating conditions inside a variety of engines built with a variety of technologies. Mobil developed a series of ester-based synthetic base oils that needed relatively few additives to meet the needs of most any specialty niche. Need "Extreme Pressure" capability? Design a base oil molecule that provides that, little or no additive required. Maybe that explains why more NASCAR teams run Mobil 1 than any other oil? Need a broad viscosity range? Design a base oil molecule that provides that, little or no additives required. Need superior lubricity? Design a base oil molecule that provides that. Non-affinity for wet clutch plates? Yup, just need a different molecule? How about "Extreme Pressure", broad viscosity range, superior lubricity, and non-affinity for wet clutch plates? Can a base oil molecule be designed to do all that? Yup, not a problem if you've spent the $millions Mobil has on chemical engineering research.



What a minute! What about low emissions? Well, fact is, the emissions problems caused by motor oil are not a problem with the base oil, but a problem with "Extreme Pressure" additives. Such additives are not necessary in abundance in an ester-based synthetic--the "Extreme Pressure" capability is an attribute of the base oil that dino and de-sulfered dino base oils lack. No "Extreme Pressure" additives, no pollution problems.



Same goes for "Energy Conserving" additives. Superior lubricity is built into the base oil molecules of ester-based synthetics, resulting in an "Energy Conserving" rating without killing the clutch.



Well, what about the ability to resist shearing by transmission gears? Doesn't that turn your 10W-50 into 10W-20 in about 1000 miles? Well, if you're running dino or de-sulfered dino 10W-50, your base oil is really 10W and the -50 comes from adding additives called "Viscosity Improver Additives", which are big, bulky molecules that work kind of like trying to pump oatmeal through the cooling system of your car. Unfortunately, such additives by nature get chopped to bits by shear forces among the gears in a transmission. Ester-based synthetic base oils are engineered to be resistant to temperature-based changes in viscosity, and therefore do not loose their viscosity due to shear forces from transmission gears. Hence, change intervals can be safely tripled compared to owner manual recommendations based on dino oils (barring contamination from extreme environments and/or improper storage), cutting oil cost by 1/2 and oil filter cost by 2/3.



Owe, and that sulfer that gets "de-ed" from dino oil to make Rotella base oils, that sulfer that is in virtually every dino base oil (though less of it in Rotella), do you have any idea what that stuff does in your crankcase? Why, when subjected to heat, it tends to combine with hydrogen and oxygen to form H[sub]2[/sub]SO[sub]4[/sub]. Yup, sulfuric acid. That's why an engine should be stored with clean oil in the crankcase, and not run after the oil is changed. Nice thing about ester-based synthetics is they don't have any sulfer in them. No sulfer, no H[sub]2[/sub]SO[sub]4[/sub]. That's why de-sulfered dino base oils have longer oil change time intervals, and ester-based synthetic base oils have longer intervals than that.



However, all this may have already changed. Automotive lubricants are changing faster than I can keep track of them.



I'm running Racing 4T 10W40. I'll switch to V-Twin 20W50 when the weather warms. Note that Mobil 1 V-Twin oil is JASO MA certified. Many V-Twin oils are not. I feel that $3/quart difference in price is not worth gambling with Tdub's health with non-motorcycle specific oils changing attributes so quickly. I believe the Rotellas that have served motorcyclists well for many years may not be so good to us in the future.



Yamaha recommends an oil change each 6000km (3728 miles) or 6 months. My riding is mostly around town these days, but long enough in duration to keep the battery charged and boil the water out of the oil, I feel I could easily stretch change intervals out to 10,000 miles, but I'm not going to do that. I'm going to change the oil when the seasons change, 10W-40 in the winter, 20W-50 in the summer, and if the oil filter is clean, I'll put it back in. Werques 4 me.
 
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