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A lot of the handling quirks with the TW are due to the short wheelbase. It's reasonably well balanced when standalone, or with someone of short stature and proportionate mass sitting on it. The moment you get someone who shops in the "big and tall" section on there, it starts getting ass-end biased pretty quickly. I did some end-weighting and data gathering for my own bike with my own ass astride it here:

Barring anyone wanting to go on a diet and get their appendages surgically shortened, a stretch is the easier path to restoring balance.
 

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Isn't the short wheelbase somewhat desirable though, especially considering how low it's ground clearance is? I know for 4x4 vehicles the shorter the better for navigating difficult terrain as it keeps more parts off the ground and away from nasty rocks.
 

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It's all about the level of compromise you're willing to make for your particular riding habits/goals. If you're mostly upright and tractoring it through the bowels of the earth 99% of your time, stock wheelbase is probably the thing for you. If you have to traverse the asphalt jungle or higher speed dirt where lean angle becomes a frequently used term in your vocabulary, a bit of a stretch may be of use. Your stature and cold-snack habits also play into it.
 

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It's all about the level of compromise you're willing to make for your particular riding habits/goals. If you're mostly upright and tractoring it through the bowels of the earth 99% of your time, stock wheelbase is probably the thing for you. If you have to traverse the asphalt jungle or higher speed dirt where lean angle becomes a frequently used term in your vocabulary, a bit of a stretch may be of use. Your stature and cold-snack habits also play into it.
That makes sense, I do drag footpegs in the twisties but I'm all the way up into the tank to keep the front wheel in check and it's definitely near the limits.
 

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Have we descended to a depth of discussion whereby we are dissecting the handling characteristics of my "Old Man's Motorcycle"?

Perhaps I show my age, as well as my level of expertise, when I say that I think it handles kinda normally.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk
 

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"But the TW is the only bike I’ve had that requires you to shift seat position in order to take a (sharp) bend."

Ok, the TW is very stable due to it's fat tires. For that reason I always loved it for teaching counter steering on my MSF classes. If you want to go left, push forward on the left bar. The bike will lean left and turn left. It sounds like you are steering your bike by moving your body weight. That will work, but as you've found, it's more difficult on a wide tired bike. Go to a big parking lot and try the counter steering, I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised
 

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"But the TW is the only bike I’ve had that requires you to shift seat position in order to take a (sharp) bend."

Ok, the TW is very stable due to it's fat tires. For that reason I always loved it for teaching counter steering on my MSF classes. If you want to go left, push forward on the left bar. The bike will lean left and turn left. It sounds like you are steering your bike by moving your body weight. That will work, but as you've found, it's more difficult on a wide tired bike. Go to a big parking lot and try the counter steering, I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised
It's amazing most don't even know they're counter steering, and many don't even know what it is, or means. You do it when you learn to ride a bicycle, and aren't even aware it.

I was one of them until I started doing my avatar stuff :), where it was explained to me. Made sense, then realized I'd been doing it all along, and never knew it!
 
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You really can't turn a motorcycle without counter steering, unless we're talking low speed. Any additional methods like body weight, using wind drag, etc, those only make minor changes to direction at any speed faster than a jog.
 
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if body position on the bike didn't matter you wouldn't see GP racers clear off the side of their bikes nor would you see them throw a leg out to slow down.
 
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if body position on the bike didn't matter you wouldn't see GP racers clear off the side of their bikes nor would you see them throw a leg out to slow down.
That has nothing to do with turning the bike. It's about moving the center of gravity so the bike can corner faster (improves traction and forces the bike to try and sit up straighter) You can't turn a bike at speed without counter steering, it's how motorcycles turn. Your motorcycle will resist everything you do, because it wants to sit upright and balance.
 
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That has nothing to do with turning the bike. It's about moving the center of gravity so the bike can corner faster (improves traction and forces the bike to try and sit up straighter) You can't turn a bike at speed without counter steering, it's how motorcycles turn. Your motorcycle will resist everything you do, because it wants to sit upright and balance.
believe me I understand counter steering, tire contact patch and how a bike moves. body position matters in all elements of the turning and traction equation
 

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believe me I understand counter steering, tire contact patch and how a bike moves. body position matters in all elements of the turning and traction equation
ok
 

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If you want to get into the biology and physics of it... you and the bike are always trying to tip over, because of the bikes center of gravity and gravitational forces. Your muscles related to balance make rapid fire micro adjustments as you detect your center of gravity moving. Being on a bike changes how your body adjusts to decaying centers of gravity during turns because you align your body with the bike's center of gravity to take advantage of of gyroscopic forces that allow the bike to tilt and maintain stability at speed.

In short, your body matches the bikes center of gravity and makes adjustments in motion to maintain its center of gravity as well as maintain the stability of the bike. Wether that is leaning as you begin a turn, or rising off the seat and centering your body over the bike as it moves beneath you (counterbalancing, you should remember this as it's taught in most MSF courses for slow speed maneuvering).

Steering input is simply compensation to inputs from your body and the forward motion/acceleration of the motorcycle.
 

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All this goes to hell as soon as traction goes to hell. I have been slammed to the ground hitting a patch of ice for example. My bike has no intention of staying upright, gives me no warning and there's nothing I can do about it. It's the one time my motorcycle behaves like a horse. Which is why I don't like horses. For no reason, out of the blue, they will try to kill you.
 

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All this goes to hell as soon as traction goes to hell. I have been slammed to the ground hitting a patch of ice for example. My bike has no intention of staying upright, gives me no warning and there's nothing I can do about it. It's the one time my motorcycle behaves like a horse. Which is why I don't like horses. For no reason, out of the blue, they will try to kill you.
I loved horses, until I signed up to move irrigation pipe one summer and a Clydesdale named "Sam" bit my shoulder and threw me a couple feet, punching a Clydesdale and punching a motorcycle have about the same effect after they injure you... it doesn't hurt them... and they don't care.

Good point about environmental variables Ski.

A test will be given at the end of this post. Lol.
 
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