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Discussion Starter #1
"(T)he Bill of Rights is not the source of our rights. It’s not even a complete list of our rights.”

"... the Founding Fathers did not believe we got our rights from the Bill of Rights. Nor did they believe they came about as a result of being American, Christian, of European decent, or white. They believed everyone had these rights even if they lived in Europe, China, or the moon. They called them Natural Rights. Where these rights were not allowed, they believed they still existed but were denied.”

We don?t need no steenking 2nd Amendment | Backwoods Home Magazine
 

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We’re in the basement now WECSOG — as is the other thread (where it belongs given the direction it was going in) …….

Despite the attempt at humour in the other thread (that seems to have fallen on deaf ears), I do in fact realise that your constitution, bill of rights, amendments (whatever you want to call it) is in fact in defence of the citizen, and prevents the government from passing laws to take those rights away. I thought that would have been fairly obvious to anyone who read what I wrote at the time, which was
mostly because the first amendment prohibits the making of any law impeding the free exercise of ……
Yet you and DA seem to have your panties in a twist over someone’s interpretation — so let me twist them a bit more ……..

I’m all for a bit of “patriotism”, although it can sometimes border on “tribalism”, the lines sometimes become confused. Or maybe we can even introduce religion into the equation, after all, it was your comment that you had a “God given right” that prompted me to “make light” of an argument that was lining up like the KKK.

The trouble is, that in almost every major war on this planet, that war is proclaimed to be “in the name of God” by one side or the other. Sure, it’s normally started by one misguided idiot in charge, who then enlists the support of the clergy, and before you know it a whole population is trying to kill someone or another “In the name of God”. Even the German army in 39-45 had “Gott mit uns” on their belt buckles — and don’t get me started on the politics behind the Crusades.

Take the Middle East - (please, just take it) — how many political forces are in play in that arena, with the full support of each nations clerics ?

This is what worries me about “God given rights” — because just like “Human Rights” in this country — you don’t actually have any. Not even that smug looking mountain Lion who’s just trashed a Badgers day by having bigger “God given” claws.

You only have the right to behave as you will, and to trust that your (insert name here) God will forgive you for that behaviour. And even if you’re an Atheist, at least adhere to some moral code.

That’s what your “Founding Fathers” were trying to get at when they wrote and signed that document — “You” have the right — in your own name — and not by right of some “higher force”.

From the link that you posted above ……..

“Because the Founding Fathers believed we had that right. They spoke about it and wrote about it. And that’s enough.”

As the title of this thread that you started infers — “Natural rights” — regardless of religious affiliation - (something that your Founding Fathers were wise enough to steer clear of) ………
 

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There ain't nothin' NATURAL about our rights. They are DIVINE.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

No one will force you to accept the premise, but it's a driving force in the forming of the constitution, like it or not. A lot of Americans have died defending the unalienable rights of all men, not just American.

BTW, I have no idea what other thread is being referred to, haven't read anything of it. FWIW

War is created for economic reasons. For the love of money is the root of all evil. Don't blame religion.
 

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I think you miss understood my intent Purple. My undies are not in a bundle. I was refering to your post which contained the following; (my emphasis added)

I used to teach “Human Rights” law — (amongst other things) — first I’d teach them what their Human Rights are, then I’d go on to show exactly why they didn’t have any.

(It’s the difference between “Qualified rights, and “Absolute rights” if anyone is interested — with the proviso that the Government could change its mind at any moment, and invoke the “Terrorism Act”, which is a constantly shifting goal post).
Let's throw religion out of the argument and call them Natural Rights. Basically I should be free to do what ever I please so long as it doesn't interfere with your right to do the same. This can be maintained between entities of equal status that posses logic and can be allowed under laws of man. That includes the right to self defense, preservation of life, limb and possessions. Many don't agree with what the government has done to us that violates these natural rights. It happens everyday and is the downfall of liberty here in America. I agree with you on that for sure.
 

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Skipro3 — just between the two of us — I honestly think that if anything, there is only “One God” — and all this “my God is bigger than your God” business is just bull shit.

There are endless “books”, all written by man (with the exception of the Koran, which was written by a man to begin with, or more correctly a “Prophet”, though I’m uncertain of his “God like status” in the matter), to the point where you can believe in any book you choose, carry it in one hand, and a gun in the other, and proclaim that you know ”what your left hand and your right hand are doing”.

Personally, I was brought up as a “Christian”, which basically means “treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself” — unless you are confronting a mad “religious zealot” with a gun, in which case, waste the fucker. Same rule — different reading. But you’ll notice that I make no distinction between religions when I say that — any “bible thumper” that thinks his book has given him the right to kill others is still “fair game” as far as I’m concerned.

Now back in the day (late 1700’s) — your “Founding Fathers” realised that there was an inherent difference between the religions of the day (though Mormons were yet to come about - never quite got my head around that one), so they chose their words with care, and settled on “Creator”.

This terminology neatly fitted in with the thinking of the time, and pretty much covered all the bases (as it does to this day).

As to your point regarding the sacrifices made over the years by many Americans over this issue — well made, and well respected — and far from forgotten.

We fight, and continue to do so, for “freedom”.

In America’s case — that “freedom” was what the “Founding Fathers” were ensuring — new country — new rules — and ones that no Government can take away from its citizens …..
 

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I think you miss understood my intent Purple. My undies are not in a bundle. I was refereeing to your post which contained the following; (my emphasis added)
I used to teach “Human Rights” law – (amongst other things) – first I’d teach them what their Human Rights are, then I’d go on to show exactly why they didn’t have any.

(It’s the difference between “Qualified rights, and “Absolute rights” if anyone is interested – with the proviso that the Government could change its mind at any moment, and invoke the “Terrorism Act”, which is a constantly shifting goal post).

Let's throw religion out of the argument and call them Natural Rights. Basically I should be free to do what ever I please so long as it doesn't interfere with your right to do the same. This can be maintained between entities of equal status that posses logic and can be allowed under laws of man. That includes the right to self defense, preservation of life, limb and possessions. Many don't agree with what the government has done to us that violates these natural rights. It happens everyday and is the downfall of liberty here in America. I agree with you on that for sure.
DA - that in principal is what Human Rights are all about, except that we in Britain have had them endlessly fucked over by Europe, and by then again by the Government. My understanding of the Guantanamo bay situation is that if it doesn't happen on American soil, or to American citizens, then it doesn't count.

The difference is that on American soil at least, you, the citizen, at least has the constitution to fall back on.

We tried that over here with the Magna Carta - fell flat on its face - business as usual .......
 

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I'm always amused when people bring up the "KKK", which now days is a group of a few hundred toothless misfits that have not strung up anybody in many years...meanwhile, gangs of blacks, Hispanics, not to mention Islamic Hoards, are killing on a daily basis....and getting a free pass from the current asshole in the White House and knee jerk Liberal Press.

Excuse me while I tell anybody that cares to shove their "White Guilt" straight up their collective asses....and carry extra ammo when you enter the wrong part of town.
 

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They didn't hold a candle to those Goat Fornicating perverts of Islam who worship a Child Molesting Pedo for Profit Name "Mo~Hammered"...

And anybody that actually studies the "Real Crusades"...not that dung spewed out by some left wing assholes, would realize, they should have finished the job on those freaking Goat Fu**ers when they had the chance.

Now back to the self delusional BS....I'm packing to ride....with the BS going on in the current election{or Selection in Killary's case} I find I have little time for this crap anymore.;)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The trouble is, that in almost every major war on this planet, that war is proclaimed to be “in the name of God” by one side or the other.
That is not even in the same realm as my reference to my rights being God-given. I can call it whatever I want to: I call it God-given, some call it natural rights, others call it "certain inalienable rights (which they go on to say, "endowed by our Creator"); regardless of what you call it, the reference is to a right to be left alone so long as I am neither initiating violence nor attempting to deprive others of those rights.
Just because some nutjobs choose to claim that God is on their side when they initiate violence upon others is not reason to equate that with peaceable folks who attribute the good things in their lives to God; and it is completely disingenuous to claim that it is.

I have read many comments from people in other parts of the world, but especially Great Britain, disparaging the founders of the USA with claims of their pronouncements being based on a religion and thus not applicable to people who don't adhere to that religion, or being based on patriotism and thus being inapplicable to the rest of the world, etc. Those claims display a complete lack of knowledge, which is fine. I don't expect Brits to be students of the documents upon which our nation was founded. I do however warn others to not place stock in smoke blown from the nether regions of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
The fact is, the men who wrote our nation's founding documents studied the work of philosophers from all over the world before and while drafting these documents.
These men did not give us our rights. Nor were they perfect. All men are flawed. But they did compile some very good philosophical ideas that are worth studying.

Brits certainly don't have a wonderful background from which to preach philosophy to the rest of the world. Great Britain has a bloodier background than most nations. And where did they get the idea that their actions were ok? From the idea that certain families are appointed by God to rule over the rest of the world, that's where. How is that idea better than, or the same as, my assertion that God created me the same as He did anyone else on earth, and therefore I have the same rights as everyone else?
 
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Discussion Starter #11
I take it you were there, as opposed to just reading the claims of the side you choose to support?
 
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That is not even in the same realm as my reference to my rights being God-given. I can call it whatever I want to: I call it God-given, some call it natural rights
Then re-title this thread ……

others call it "certain inalienable rights (which they go on to say, "endowed by our Creator"); regardless of what you call it, the reference is to a right to be left alone so long as I am neither initiating violence nor attempting to deprive others of those rights.
Couldn’t agree more ……

Just because some nutjobs choose to claim that God is on their side when they initiate violence upon others is not reason to equate that with peaceable folks who attribute the good things in their lives to God; and it is completely disingenuous to claim that it is.
No-one (on this thread) has made such a suggestion ……

I have read many comments from people in other parts of the world, but especially Great Britain, disparaging the founders of the USA with claims of their pronouncements being based on a religion and thus not applicable to people who don't adhere to that religion
Not from me you haven’t — quite the opposite in fact — I clearly stated the Founding Fathers had deliberately avoided such wording — “All men are created equal” — or did you forget that ?

or being based on patriotism and thus being inapplicable to the rest of the world, etc. Those claims display a complete lack of knowledge, which is fine. I don't expect Brits to be students of the documents upon which our nation was founded. I do however warn others to not place stock in smoke blown from the nether regions of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.
I shan’t take that personally ….. although I will note that certain parts of your constitution don’t seem to apply to the rest of the world — eg Guantanamo


Brits certainly don't have a wonderful background from which to preach philosophy to the rest of the world. Great Britain has a bloodier background than most nations. And where did they get the idea that their actions were ok? From the idea that certain families are appointed by God to rule over the rest of the world, that's where. How is that idea better than, or the same as, my assertion that God created me the same as He did anyone else on earth, and therefore I have the same rights as everyone else?
I made an earlier comment in praise of your Founding Fathers , who had already had a taste of “British Royal indifference”, and had put measures in place (eg the Constitution) to make sure that the “new America” would no longer have to suffer that.

I even went as far as to criticise Magna Carta as a treacherous piece of shit — and further suggested that the “Royal treachery came as no surprise”. I understand that you’ve had some experience of this, prior to throwing your tea over the side.

You don’t hail from Boston by any chance ?

Either way — not having a go at you WECSOG — just some of this “You’re British, so you’re talking out of your arse” stuff.

We can’t all be American you know — where would be the fun in that ? …………….. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Then re-title this thread ……
I chose that title because it is the sub-title of the section of article that I quoted.

No-one (on this thread) has made such a suggestion ……
Well, you did bring it up.

Not from me you haven’t — quite the opposite in fact — I clearly stated the Founding Fathers had deliberately avoided such wording — “All men are created equal” — or did you forget that ?
I didn't forget it, and it was not my intention to suggest I had heard that from you. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

I shan’t take that personally ….. although I will note that certain parts of your constitution don’t seem to apply to the rest of the world — eg Guantanamo
I hope you don't take it personally, since it was a comment on "comments from people in other parts of the world, but especially Great Britain..."
As for Gitmo, I don't consider that to be in accordance with the US Constitution. In fact, I could talk all day about things the current US federal, state and local governments do that are blatantly unconstitutional.

“You’re British, so you’re talking out of your arse” stuff.

We can’t all be American you know — where would be the fun in that ? …………….. :p
I didn't say that. Again, "comments from people in other parts of the world, but especially Great Britain," was not directed at you. We're just talking here. I have indeed heard and seen comments about these subjects from some Brits (and others, including Americans) who don't know what they are talking about. They talk out their arse not because they (some of them anyway) are British, but because they are morons. No nation holds a monopoly on that.

I don't have a problem with you, Purple. In fact we agree on more subjects than not.
 

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The crusades have never ended. What do you think the Bosnian fracus was about?
In the early part of the 20th century it even triggered the first world war.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Are you denying that the crusades existed?
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying if you actually did a bit of research, you would find that there is much more to the story than the simplistic picture "progressive" anti-Christians like to paint.

Even without considering all that, equating something some popes and their Catholic followers did with Christianity as a whole is proof that you don't know what you are talking about.
 

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Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying if you actually did a bit of research, you would find that the is much more to the story than the simplistic picture "progressive" anti-Christians like to paint.
So were you there? Or were you just reading the claims of the side you have chosen to support?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
So were you there? Or were you just reading the claims of the side you have chosen to support?
See, I haven't made any statement about what did or did not happen a thousand years ago. Nor have I come charging into a discussion about rights with the typical moronic rantings spewed by atheists anytime they see God mentioned. So go troll somewhere else.
 
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