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Discussion Starter #1
Since we now have the luxury of pinning our posts, I would like to assemble as much rear shock information and place in a single post. This should be of benefit to all those that follow and have a desire to upgrade their rear suspension. I still have some good shots of my V-Star mod, and someone just posted a link to Dyno Dave's great upgrades that includes the Banshee switch. The Blaster switch was well chronicled by Catamount on this site, so that move should be easy. What I would like to do is get some pictures of the Yamaha R6(?) that Mtbike Jeff did. When moveing about the old site, I note that alot of the photos are 'gone'.



Should you find photos of any rear shock changes, could you please post them/links here so I might put something together over Christmas when I will have some extra time............. MUCH THANKS. Gerry



http://tw200forum.com/forums/83474/ShowPost.aspx
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Come on folks, I need a hand on this one.. I would rather spend the time putting together a good post, not combing through hundreds of threads looking for a picture (s). Should you know where to look, please point me in the wright direction. Thanks, Gerry
 

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I think it's a great idea. Hope folks come forward.



It may be that some of these swaps didn't work out as well as expected in everyday use. Happens to me all the time. It would be nice to have that information as well, so no one has to reinvent the wheel.



I have nothing to contribute thus far, but I'm working on a Banshee/TW hybrid that I hope will provide a fully adjustable stock-length shock.
 

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Gerry:

I renamed your post topic so maybe it will garner more attention. I am also moving it to the technical forum as it definitely is not off topic.
 

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I'm starting to suspect that Blaster/Banshee shocks are either identical, or identical during certain years (or, they are being listed incorrectly on eBay).



I'm not sure what to make of it.



Check out this post by Brock:



Welcome to the T Dub forum. I am a novice at best and I just put a banshee/blaster shock on my T Dub. You only need basic tools to change it (Pillips, wrench for the rear wheel, and a few others) and I did my in my apartment living room. I had to have a small bushing machined for the top eye loop on the shock ($40) and it can be a bit touch to put the pin through the bottom of end of the shock, but there is not much tech knowledge needed.



I have a second identical shock that I paid $25 for, I will sell it for the same price if you like. It has a white spring and looks to be in pretty good shape. I bought one that was listed as a blaster, then a bought another that was listed as a banshee and they are both identical.
 

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I've been kicking around in boneyards lately, trying to figure this stuff out. Unfortunately I limited my search to shocks under 14" free length, so I didn't measure all the ones mentioned below, but there is a lot of room for getting it wrong when you think about it.



I think a lot of guys aren't distinguishing between front and rear Blaster and Banshee shocks, leading to confusion. All using different shocks, believing them to be the same. I think this accounts for why one person is dazzled with his shock and another is not. We're not all on the same page.



For example, the early Banshee rear shock which directly fits our bikes is a reservoir shock, 14" eye to eye, both bushings are the same diameter as a TW shock, is fully adjustable for preload, rebound and compression damping and is gold anodized. It must be mounted upside down on our bikes. It's intended to work through a linkage, so the spring is mush.

I can bottom this shock just by bouncing up and down on the bike in the driveway, and I only weigh 170. Which leads me to think that anyone who has one and is happy with it probably has some other shock by mistake.



The later Banshee rear is a natural aluminum color, has a huge lower casting and won't fit our bikes at all. Different animals.



Brock sent me pics of his shock. I believe it's a Blaster front.



All of these are gunna be of different lengths and spring rates, some years have progressive springs, some originally were intended to work with linkages and have lighter springs, and some were designed to be paired on the front a-arms of an ATV, which will be lighter still, but longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
BOY Lizrbrth what a great bit of information. Good thing we are not working for NASA. This is indeed something that needs to be considered, and I never gave it a thought. In my mind I just assumed "rear". I think that is what I purchased. Gerry





 

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Thanks Guys, didn't realize what was going on here. Charles started this project, and in my opinion, the best thing we can do is leave something of value for someone else. Catamount, you have put lots of effort in your thread. It gets lots of hits and is a real inspiration.



Some time ago, I presented a thread on how one might carry more fuel. It worked out fine, and seemed to help a few folks. I would like to do the same with 'rear shock options'.



Please keep the "rear shock" information flowing my way and I will see if Santa can do something nice. If any of you guys have some 'free' time, give some thought to picking a topic and make yourself immortal (in Cyber Space) by putting together a comprehensive "how to" sticky.



Lets not forget Eldavo's Wikipedia project. Lots of work and very informative. We as well can add information.



Thanks again, Gerry
 

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Nah, Gerry. That's the one. I think most of the confusion occurs when buying online. Is that the VStar setup?



I wonder how that spring would work out on the stock TW shock. I actually think most of the issue with the stocker is that sudden "hit" you take from the progressive spring.
 

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I've been kicking around in boneyards lately, trying to figure this stuff out. Unfortunately I limited my search to shocks under 14" free length, so I didn't measure all the ones mentioned below, but there is a lot of room for getting it wrong when you think about it.



I think a lot of guys aren't distinguishing between front and rear Blaster and Banshee shocks, leading to confusion. All using different shocks, believing them to be the same. I think this accounts for why one person is dazzled with his shock and another is not. We're not all on the same page.



For example, the early Banshee rear shock which directly fits our bikes is a reservoir shock, 14" eye to eye, both bushings are the same diameter as a TW shock, is fully adjustable for preload, rebound and compression damping and is gold anodized. It must be mounted upside down on our bikes. It's intended to work through a linkage, so the spring is mush.

I can bottom this shock just by bouncing up and down on the bike in the driveway, and I only weigh 170. Which leads me to think that anyone who has one and is happy with it probably has some other shock by mistake.



The later Banshee rear is a natural aluminum color, has a huge lower casting and won't fit our bikes at all. Different animals.



Brock sent me pics of his shock. I believe it's a Blaster front.



All of these are gunna be of different lengths and spring rates, some years have progressive springs, some originally were intended to work with linkages and have lighter springs, and some were designed to be paired on the front a-arms of an ATV, which will be lighter still, but longer. Try to I.D. your shock before posting, and make sure you know what you're buying before shelling out your dough on eBay.


I tend to agree with you...that it is a blaster shock. I had to machine a bushing for the top bolt ($40) and it fits perfect. I bought the Blaster shock from someone in the forum. Someone on Ebay listed another blaster shock as a Banshee shock so I bought it to compare. They were identical. Both with white springs and a bigger upper eye-loop. So if anyone is interested, I have the other Blaster shock and I will sell if for the same price that I bought it for...(shipping was included).



Brock

[email protected]
 

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I checked, Brock. Yours is probably a Blaster rear after all. The fronts have simple ramp adjusters for preload only.



Near as I can determine no Blaster rear shock has a reservoir or is fully adjustable, but it's direct (no linkage) which means it probably has the most favorable spring rate. Cool.



Another thing I was gunna mention is that on the Banshee shock there are supposed to be round aluminum covers over the bushing ends, one on each side, 4 in all per shock. They keep the crud out, and reduce the number of shims or washers needed to center the shock. Yamaha gets like 8 bucks apiece for them, so make sure you get them with your shock if you care about such things. I don't know if the Blaster is supposed to have them or if they're open like the TW.
 

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Some examples of shocks, springs, etc. to illustrate some of the factors involved when making rear suspension mods:







Specs on shocks pictured above, bottom to top, by length:





TW200--- Non-adjustable. Eye-to-eye length, 13 3/16". Main shaft diameter,12mm. Travel to bumpstop, 1 3/16". Spring installed height, 7 1/4". Spring free length, 7 1/2". Progressive spring. Wire diameter 12mm (approx.), Bottom eye 12mm, unbushed,no seals. Top eye 12mm, rubber bushing, phenolic seals.



Comments: Adds no ride height. Adequate for most riders. Progressive spring a problem over the rough stuff as the "hit" comes too early in the stroke, causing "pogo-ing" and loss of control. Could easily be rectified with a proper spring. Least amount of factory-limited travel.



BANSHEE---Rear ATV shock. Reservoir type.Preload, rebound, compression adjustable. Eye-to-eye length, 13 7/8". Main shaft diameter, 14mm. Trvel to bumpstop, 2 3/4"(*) Spring installed height, 9" (midpoint of preload). Spring free length, 9 1/2". Straight-wound spring (non-progressive). Wire size, 10mm. Bottom eye, 12mm, Heim type. Top eye, 12mm, Heim type.



Comments: Bolt-on. Increases curb height (unloaded)but actually decreases ride height once loaded. . Sealed side plates and Heim-type bushings, both ends. Spring is spaghetti, intended for use with a linkage. Shock must be installed upside down to fit TW. Must be shimmed to center it in TW mounts. Close clearances beneath reservoir, may require some grinding to clear swingarm mounts. Hands down the best starting point of the 3 in terms of quality and adjustability for the experimenter. Needs a real spring. Nearly twice the available factory-limited travel compared to stock shock.



BLASTER---Rear ATV shock. Shaft-mounted jam nut style preload adjustment only. Eye-to-eye length, 15". Main shaft diameter, 12mm. Travel to bumpstop 1 7/8"(*) Progressive spring. Spring installed height, 9 1/4". Spring free length, 9 3/4". Wire size, 11mm. Bottom eye, 12mm, rubber bushing, no seals. Top eye, 14mm, rubber bushing, no seals.



Comments: Nosebleed suspension height increase. May cause interference between rear brake rod and passenger pegs. Drastically affects trail, may require taller front end, depending on intended use. Upper bushing requires sleeving to use TW mounting bolt. Despite its length, factory-limited travel only midway between stock shock and Banshee. Potentially the best ride quality across the board of the 3 (in stock form) due to spring design, but this spring may be too soft intitially when used with restricted travel.



I'll edit as we go, with a better pic, etc. If someone has the same info on the R6 or some other shock or spring that they've used, pass it along. Try to include what was required to install it.



Newbies need to understand that a 2" longer shock does not result in a 2" taller bike. Rather, it results in a 5"-6" taller bike, but only in the rear. This shortens your wheelbase and brings your front forks more nearly vertical, which among other things can result in twitchy handling and poor impact absorption up front. Everthang affects some other thang.





Myth of Long Travel, 101:







Same 3 shocks, springs removed and arranged by available travel. TW left, Blaster center, Banshee right.



The shiny part of the rod determines travel. Travel is limited by the rubber "snubbers" or bumpstops on the top part of the shaft.



Before you get all gah-gah over the Banshee shock on the basis of travel, you need to realize that you can't use all that travel on a TW. Ideally you would use a new snubber on it to limit it to just slightly more travel than stock. Otherwise you would shred your tire on your subframe (or worse) in a hard hit. The only shock of these 3 that can possibly use most of its available travel when mounted on a TW is the Blaster, due to its length. But then you'd have to deal with an extra 5 inches of seat height in the bargain. Everthang affects some other thang.



Springs explained, sorta:







Top view of the 3 springs, arranged by wire diameter.



Banshee left, Blaster center, TW right. roughly 10, 11 and 12mm's, respectively. It's kinda hard to tell the differences in the pic. Generally speaking, the fatter the wire, the stiffer the spring, and all things being equal a short spring will be stiffer than a longer one. Therefore the TW spring, being both shorter and of thicker wire is hugely stiffer than the other two. Therefore you would think that the Blaster shock would be the next stiffest of the 3. But not neccessarily so...







Side view, same 3 springs. The Banshee is a straight-wound spring. All the coils are an equal distance apart. That means that it has a mostly linear action as it compresses. In other words if it's too weak it will probably remain too weak throughout its stroke, and if it's too stiff that will also be somewhat linear. Get it just right and you're golden.



The Blaster is a PROGRESSIVE-WOUND spring. That means that the coils which are closest together are weaker than the ones that are wider apart. These coils will compress first, giving you a plush ride initially, then the bigger coils will kick in as your suspension compresses. This spring is actually weaker than the Banshee spring until you get into the "meat" of the coils, even though it's made of thicker wire.



The TW spring works the same way. The transisition occurs more abruptly between "off" and "on", but it gets it all done within the range of wheel travel of a stock TW. The longer spring might run out of wheel travel before it reaches the sweet spot, unless you could preload it, as with the Banshee shock body, and even then it might not have enough room. So a straight rate spring might be the best soluion here.



None of this applies to using the Blaster spring on the Blaster body. It has plenty of room to use most of the spring, but there's that seat height thing again.



I'll edit as we go, with a better pic, etc. If someone has the same info on the R6 or some other shock or spring that they've used, pass it along. Try to include what was required to install it.



Newbies need to understand that a 2" longer shock does not result in a 2" taller bike. Rather, it results in a 5"-6" taller bike, but only in the rear. This shortens your wheelbase and brings your front forks more nearly vertical, which among other things can result in twitchy handling and poor impact absorption up front. Everthang affects some other thang.





Comments are mine, and need not appear in the sticky. These are shocks I have personally fitted to a TW without modifying the shocks in any way. They're intended to inform and promote thought BEFORE you make that eBay purchase.



Suspension mods iz serious. If it ain't broke for you, don't fix it, or at least be honest with yourself about your skill level and understanding of the subject and postpone any mods until you're a little better informed.



Better still, wait til Gizmow puts his thread together. There should be enough step-by-step info to complete a safe mod and be aware of the downside, if any.



Gizmow and others have come up with solutions that work, and there are many more possible combinations that none of us have yet looked into.



I hope this info was helpful.
 

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Thank you for the comparison. I have the aluminum covers but the fit on the upper pin was so tight I didn't bother. The bottom was such a hassle to slide the pin through I didn't bother either. If it gets bad, I will install them.



I will call you in the next day or two when I have time. My kids are pretty demanding when I have them.



Brock
 

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banshee shock with stock tw spring with spacer made to make up the differance in lenght of longer banshee spring..

i'm 220 and that work great for me. i have 2 tws with this mod and big horns.. works great,

i also have a aft market spring fo rhte banshee much stiffer than stock banshee but not stiff enough fo rme.. a eiboc or somethign like that.. if someone wants it 60 plus shipping.. email me for more info..
 

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Discussion Starter #16
This is Great Guys, Thank you very much!!! I think we have a BINGO !!



In my opinion JTSKIR222 just put all the pieces of the puzzle; ride quality, simplicity and minimal expense together in 'one' package. Lots of folks have worked very hard to improve the TW's rear suspension and then present us with their parts list and methodology. Given my personal experience, the Banshee system brought to us by Rodrey is a very good starting point. Our quest for viable spring options has been made so much simplier by now knowing the TW's stock spring works nicely.... REMEMBER as Qwerty and Ben had cautioned; a long stroke shock and a spring offering less travel (Banshee/TW combo) can lead to coil binding. So if you are inclined to jump a ramp, your fully compressed spring will be no spring at all and your spine will be forced to take the rest of the impact....... not a good thing..... Gerry, Thanks again fellas
 

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Hi Mrgizmow. I lost all the pics of my R1 shock conversion. I don't know if the thread can be linked but I can take my bike apart and get some pics . To help newbies to TW. Stock spring is 750lb. There is 3 preload setting on the shock. Comes set on middle setting. A 1000lb aftermarket VStar spring should fit on the tw's shock for you guys 200+lbs. I took a 2000 something R1 shock and shortened a Vstar Stock spring(750lb)to fit on the R1 Shock. Shortening a spring will increase stiffness by 50lbs or so per coil cut off. The shock has the same stroke as the tw. R1 spring too wimpy. I wanted to keep air intake stock because I seem to get sucked into puddles whenever I ride in the U.P. Got some ABS plastic and some ABS welding glue and notched the airbox to clear the R1 shock's oil resevior. Bike now has the 4 way adjustable R1 shock and I can even adjust ride height (via spacers at the swingarm mount. ) I have even traveled 2 up on it on a five hour trip.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Your a Great Guy Jeff. Thanks for comming onboard with your reply. I reposted most of 'our' shock information in a now "locked" thread in the customization category. I referenced your 'major' contribution and I think managed to provide a link to your project. I kind of took a few liberties in evaluating your project. I indicated you were very happy, but also suggested that if you had it to do all over you may opt to look for an easier way to make for a better ride. Boy to find your "old" posts, I spent alot of time Googling "Jeffmtbkr" "mtbikerjeff" ect, ect....... seems your are 'Really' into Mt, Bikes, selling on E-Bay (you have a great sellor rating).



Thanks again for all your help in the past, and your continued interest and concern. Gerry
 

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Today was one of those day that make my third grade education worth the extra 5 years it took to get it
Ronnydog and I were discussing some goofy stuff on the phone today and I noticed this as a result of the convo.



First, some bad news. Yamaha lies. I'm sure you're shocked. Advertised rear travel on a stock TW is 5". Not so, Buckwheat! It's BARELY 4" in reality. I measured.



The stock bumpstop inside the shock is too long. Here's a lousy pic of the shock fully compressed in my HTSCF ( High-Tech Suspension Cycling Fixture).



OK. So it's just an old frame. But it's shiny, no?.













With the spring removed and the suspension fully compressed, with a stock tire there is about 3 1/2" of clearance before the tire is in any danger of contacting anything. Clearance is gunna be less with ATV tires, so approach this sensibly. PLEASE DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO REMOVE THE ENTIRE BUMPSTOP! I'm sure your mommy is a sweet lady, but I don't want to hear from her because you're in the hospital. I'm also not gunna buy you a new tire because you were unclear on the concept. So do it right. You NEED the bumpstop. We're gunna do this incrementally and keep it where it is while gaining real useable travel.



For our purposes here be aware that 3/16" of additional SHOCK travel equates to approx. 1" of WHEEL travel. Needless to say, a little goes a long way here.



I'm gunna show you how to get Yamaha's stolen inch back for zero dollars and no shock dissasembly. Then we'll go a step further and gain nearly 2" (Some dissassembly required) with no risk to life and limb and no chance of shock damage.



Here's a pic of the bumpstop assembly spread out on the shaft. You probably won't be able to see these parts very well on an assembled shock, but this mod can be done with the spring on







From bottom, up you'll see the actual bumpstop, which is the thicker, slightly conicle piece of rubber. Next is a urethane spacer, then there's an upside-down metal cup that they fit into.



That spacer is approx. 3/16" thick. There's your stolen inch of travel.



Remove your shock from the bike, Using small screwdrivers or something shimmy the metal cup down the shaft and maneuver things around until you get the spacer out where you can see it. Then take a pocketknife, exacto blade or your favorite implement of destruction and cut it all the way through on one side. Then pull it off the shaft and out of the spring with some needlenose pliers..

Here's mine. I cut it down the side with a pocketknife.







Put the shock back on and you'll probably find yourself bottoming out a lot less often, particularly you heavier riders. Next up we'll gain another inch. Takes a few tools, though. For this you'll need a spring compressor and a vise.
 

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You can adjust the ride height up or down a bit with the circlip under the spring perch on that TW shock if needed.



Dave
 
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