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Discussion Starter #1
Headed for the green dot roads this morning because that was the plan so damn the fact that it rained so much last night. We weren't even into the woods yet when the gumbo mud became incredibly sticky, slippery and a general pain in the arse. Did about half mile in first gear, sometimes revving it up through the mess and other times putting along slowly. Then my bike just died. Going real slow and then it kind of bogged down and died.

Now things start to get weird. Bike doesn't want to start right back up. Acts flooded? Then it starts but doesn't want to idle. Idles better at half choke. Dies when throttle applied. Then doesn't want to start again and eventually I've killed the brand new Batter Tender lithium battery. Bump start and run at half choke to get back home. A bit of towing in there somewhere. At home the battery reads 10.3 on the meter and spray a crazy volume of mud off the bike. Bump start again and bike seems to run fine, no choke and idles great. Rides around no problem. While bike is running the battery climbs from 10.3 to 13.3 on the meter. Take a 30 mile road ride with no issues. Pull in and test the battery. 13.85 on the meter and 14.25 when it is revving up. Great. Problems solved. Turned it off and went in.

40 minutes later the bike wont start. 10.1 on the meter. Won't even turn it over. I have it on the charger now but my hopes are not too high.

Great day prior to mud and bike problems.

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Discussion Starter #2
And I have my first complaint about the Shinko 244. Going slow in the nasty mud and that tire didn't shed any mud at all. Quickly built up to be a problem between the tire and fender and it was cutting it away on both forks constantly as it rolled along. Looked like an old Play-doh press. I have really never ridden in conditions like that so I can't tell you if any other tire would have done better but that sucked and there was really no traction left for steering well.
 

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And I have my first complaint about the Shinko 244. Going slow in the nasty mud and that tire didn't shed any mud at all. .......
Yeah, in that gumbo mud the only tire that would shed it would be something like the Kenda 760....way too aggressive a tire for most of us. When I got into that kind of mud I had BOTH the Kenda 270 and the OEM rear lock up. I had to stop twice and find a stick to dig it out. :mad: I'll never go back there when it's real wet. :eek:

Sorry, no ideas on the BT Lithium issue. :(
 

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Your battery never had a chance to recharge even though it read 13.85 on the meter that is the charge rate from the voltage regulator. Driving it a 1/2 hour will put very little charge back into it. The headlight uses @1/3 of the charge rate. You probably put 1-2 amp hrs back in. The only way to tell the true charge is to let the battery rest for a 1/2 hr and then measure it disconnected after charging. I hope it comes back for you on the charger. Is it still under warrenty? If it's not don't give up hope sometimes lithium cells can be raised up from a state where they won't take a charge to one where they will. I saved one of my lithium power tool batteries by opening the case and hitting the low cell with a charge from a 9v battery. Works like new. There are youtube videos on reviving dead lithium tool batteries. It is not a dangerous procedure like any battery you need to exercise care and not short it in any way.
 

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Hey I wonder if your carb vent tube got plugged by mud and that's why it was running bad. Did you modify it for deep water crossings?
 

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Hey I wonder if your carb vent tube got plugged by mud and that's why it was running bad. Did you modify it for deep water crossings?
I was just going to type that. Great suggestion!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ok I'm back. Thanks for all the input everyone. Gonna check the connections for sure. Please tell me more about checking my charge rate. I have a pretty good multimeter, just don't know how to use it for the most part. Battery sat on the BT junior charger for last 24 hours. I can barely stand the suspense. Because the bike ran so poorly in the mud and ran so well washed off, I too suspected breathing problems. I do have the deep water mod in place, but those lower tubes were caked and the underside of the seat was solid. Also, a large clump of mud on the cylinder head across the spark plug. Could that cause a problem? I will go do some work and report back here.

Thanks again for any feedback.
 

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MT21 sheds mud pretty well for a front. I am sure the d606 would be similar. 244 isnt super agressive, I would assume 241 is better in the mud too.
 

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MT21 sheds mud pretty well for a front. I am sure the d606 would be similar. 244 isnt super agressive, I would assume 241 is better in the mud too.
 

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You mentioned mud on the plug so yes that could have caused the poor running. Did the battery hold a charge?
 

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I'm sure it probably is, but.....the battery charger you are using is made specifically for a lithium battery correct?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ok. Appreciate the suggestions on front tire choices. Been waiting for a good excuse to slap something else on the front. Bike starts and runs well with a donor battery so I am blaming the starting and running issues on the mud and or a breathing problem. All of my electrical connections seemed good. Lithium battery sat on the charger for 36 hours and read 12.85 again when disconnected. As I watched the meter, I could see it discharging. It would lose a point every 30 seconds or so. Damn! After 36 hours rest, the BT lithium reads 10.6 and I'm not even gonna hook it back up. This battery is toast. Less than a month old and under 15 or so starts on it. Very disappointed. I'm not saying that I didn't cause or contribute to the failure but come on. Are these things that fickle? Bought it from Amazon so am gonna try to get them to take it back.

My charger is the Battery Tender Junior and I specifically asked customer support if this tender would be ok for the lithium and they confirmed that it would be fine. I did fully charge the battery prior to initial install. Thought I was doing everything right.
 

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See below info from Battery tender concerning using a regular BT on a Lithium battery. I have the BT Lithium like you and have the Lithium battery Tender charger. I have run the battery dead a couple times while out and about by leaving the lights on etc - bump started in 3rd go home put on the charger and all is well - The lead acid and lithium are very different critters - see below. Amazon will take it back - good luck!


WHY YOU SHOULD NOT USE A BATTERY TENDER® ON A LITHIUM BATTERY

Here is the simple answer: A Battery Tender® can not measure State of Charge (SoC) of a lithium battery. It simply does not have this capability. While they work great on lead acid batteries, they are not able to accurately “read” lithium batteries. So, they will never properly charge a lightweight lithium battery.

Beyond SoC, the Battery Tender® is looking for a 6 cell battery, with each cell having roughly 2 volts. All lithium lightweight batteries are based on 4 cell packs, with each cell having roughly 3.3 volts. This sends the Battery Tender® a reading that is outside of the safe charging window, and contributes to the incompatibility.

So, how will this damage a lithium battery? The answer depends on a number of factors which are too numerous to go into here. The fact is that it wont work properly, it can damage a lightweight lithium battery, and will void your warranty…so dont do it.

A final note- when you see battery companies advertising “no battery tender required” or “works with battery tender”, they are either lying to you, or dont know any better. Neither of those options is good when working with a battery company and should raise a big red flag about their understanding of the products they are selling.
 

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I've been looking into converting to a lithium battery and this thread came at a good time. This is what Battery Tender has on their website:

12. Can I use a standard Lead Acid charger/maintainer for my Battery Tender® lithium battery?

As long as the battery charger does not have a desulfation mode and the peak voltage does not exceed 14.8V during the charge cycle it can be used to charge a Battery Tender® Lithium Battery. Of course the best way to charge and maintain a Battery Tender® Lithium Battery is to use a Battery Tender® Lithium Battery Charger.


Does that seem reasonable given DONZO's post?

Just looked up which BT charger will work with their lithium battery. It's the 800 series which they list for $199!!
 

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I've been looking into converting to a lithium battery and this thread came at a good time. This is what Battery Tender has on their website:

12. Can I use a standard Lead Acid charger/maintainer for my Battery Tender® lithium battery?

As long as the battery charger does not have a desulfation mode and the peak voltage does not exceed 14.8V during the charge cycle it can be used to charge a Battery Tender® Lithium Battery. Of course the best way to charge and maintain a Battery Tender® Lithium Battery is to use a Battery Tender® Lithium Battery Charger.


Does that seem reasonable given DONZO's post?

Just looked up which BT charger will work with their lithium battery. It's the 800 series which they list for $199!!
I would say better safe than sorry - A lithium charger is about $30 bucks on Amazon..... unfortunately the graph showing how a Lead acid vs lithium charges did not paste - here's the text.- they are quite different.

5-Step Lithium Iron Phosphate Charging Algorithm
In the following figure, the text boxes above the voltage and current graphs contain the details for the charging steps. The time scale is not proportional to any real time. It set to match up with the text boxes. That is for display information only.

Lithium Iron Phosphate 5-Step Charging Algorithm
Figure 2: Lithium Iron Phosphate 5-Step Charging Algorithm
Looking at the graph, Step 2, Recovery Mode would seem to occupy the position as the first real charging step. It is specifically shown here and not for the lead-acid battery chargers because of the more sensitive nature lithium iron phosphate, certainly in terms of voltage dependence, but also with respect to charge current amplitude.

Don’t forget that a 12 volt lithium iron phosphate battery consist of 4 individual 3.3 volt cells. That is a 13.2 volt 100% SOC voltage. Even though 8 volts is discussed as a low limit voltage, in fact, voltages just below 12 are more nearly an indicator of a fully discharged battery.
 

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After doing some more reading - I think the regular battery tender would be ok for maintaining a fully charged lithium battery as does our stator while riding. Re- charging a dead lithium battery with a non lithium charger may be more problematic...sorry for all this - but, this is something that interests me!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Very much appreciate all of the good feedback. I was super impressed with the BT lithium right up until it died on me. Working on sending it back to Amazon now. I did order an AGM recommended by fishguy in an earlier battery thread. It is dirt cheap and cannot be any less reliable than this lithium has been. I wanted so badly for the lithium to be fantastic. Unfortunately, real world use and abuse has crushed my hopes and destroyed this Battery Tender Lifepo4 battery. Maybe the technology will improve. In the meantime I had to ride the little CRF150f cause the Freedom Machine is on the ropes until new battery arrives. Thanks again for the help and feedback everyone. Love this site

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