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I just checked a space front that I have and the front does not have a “safety” hump on it like the rear does.
The other issue on the rear is the tire itself. Unless you put some sort of tubeless tire on it it will always be leaking air. Tube type tires don’t have the membrane on the inside of the carcass that a tubeless has which is what makes it hold air. The raw rubber won’t hold air by itself hence the membrane. It may hold for a while but you will be filling them back up constantly.
I must have an unusual tire because I do not have to add air all the time.
All I can tell you is that it has been working for about 10 years. I do not remember what year I went to Moab but I went tubeless just before I went.
 

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I must have an unusual tire because I do not have to add air all the time.
All I can tell you is that it has been working for about 10 years. I do not remember what year I went to Moab but I went tubeless just before I went.
What tires are you running or have been running? at what pressure? I assume you don't have any debeading experiences?
 

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I will throw this in, just for your own safety. be careful if your going to mount a tire that isn't for the TW. Some of the hubs I've sold are to guys that blew up their new atv tires trying to mount them to the stock rims.
 

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I'm reading rumblings that a tube type tire is more air-permeable than a tubeless tire since it can rely on the tube to hold pressure. A tubeless tire has an additional inside layer and will hold pressure better sans a tube. Any tubeless veterans who can confirm or denounce?
 

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I'm reading rumblings that a tube type tire is more air-permeable than a tubeless tire since it can rely on the tube to hold pressure. A tubeless tire has an additional inside layer and will hold pressure better sans a tube. Any tubeless veterans who can confirm or denounce?
Not a tire expert but I have no air loss problem with mine.
 

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I'm reading rumblings that a tube type tire is more air-permeable than a tubeless tire since it can rely on the tube to hold pressure. A tubeless tire has an additional inside layer and will hold pressure better sans a tube. Any tubeless veterans who can confirm or denounce?
From what I've seen on the internet + arrowsmith's 10 year experience I am starting to think the air permeability of tube tires is minimal. Think of it the other way, if the manufacturer claimed or even slightly said tube tire could hold without tube he would expose himself to pretty big liability.
And other thing, I think it greatly varies from tire to tire.
My other teory would be that thicker tires are less permeable, but I have no way of knowing if TW tures are really thicker..
 

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I must have an unusual tire because I do not have to add air all the time.
All I can tell you is that it has been working for about 10 years. I do not remember what year I went to Moab but I went tubeless just before I went.
I know people that have done it on other bikes and have had issues with air loss, not quick air loss but constant air loss and having to air up tires before every ride.

There is also the bead construction thing to think about, if you read the article i posted from Bestrest it explains the difference between a tubeless bead and a tubed bead and why they are constructed differently and why the rim is also constructed differently.

One of my friends who did this type of conversion on his KTM 350 has experienced multiple sudden bead unseats of a tubeless converted tube type tire when aired up to normal dirt bike pressure( which may just be too low). He ended up going back to tubes. His tires held air just fine for a few days at a spell, and putting around at a slow pace it was fine, the problem was when the pace picked up the bead would just fall off. Happened on the front more than the rear. He went against a lot of advice on KTM forums when he did his conversion since like most of us he hates fixing tubes. It did not work out for him and i think he is lucky he didn't get hurt.

His experience is why i have never considered a tubeless on the TW. I like to run ~12psi off road which may not be enough to keep the tire on the rim. The duro being a tubless tire with a proper tubeless bead and the rear TW rim having a safety hump i think makes it a viable candidate and as Fred mentioned that tire is not an easy repair in the field. The front and factory rear arent so bad so for me ill live with tubes. I have mentioned before my personal experience with sudden total air loss on the front end of a dirt bike before and what happened to me and its not a risk i am willing to take.

I do still want to do my Africa twin since i have no interest in field repairing a flat on that beast but i plan to buy proper rims designed for tubeless for the bike, its going to cost me tho. To the tune of ~$2500 for rims with sealed spokes. I am definetly not going to risk a may/may not work type scenario on a bike i ride at freeway speed.
 

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~12psi off road which may not be enough to keep the tire on the rim.
When I used to do a lot of off-roading on my DR350, at low air pressures, I had to use rim locks back and front. Maybe not such a good idea for the front after all.

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buellzebub,

I did a little research (stress little) on the difference between using a tube tire or tubeless "system" in relation to the tire sealing properly against the rim.
My research is highly suspect but this is what I'm thinking. While not mentioning it exactly in the words you and I are looking for, I think/believe what they in the articles are mentioning for a motorcycle tubeless tire to seal properly on a spoked rim has more to do with the spokes not being sealed rather than the tire bead sealing to the outer rim as much if this makes sense.
I believe, if we are using some kind of sealant procedure to seal the spokes, this is satisfying the intent.
Of course, tubed and tubeless tires are made slightly different but I'm leaning to the belief tire construction isn't really our issue if we "seal our spokes" properly.

Tubliss motorcycle tire system. Perhaps this is a different way of "sealing the spokes". Tubliss system has a small inner tube if you will which seals the spokes but it also puts outward pressure on the beads of the tire which I think is the question you're implying for sealing against the rim. It has no main larger tube and in most cases, if you get a puncture, you fix the tire with a tubeless tire repair method.

The weak points of each are similar in that one hopes the spokes don't leak if sealed and the small innertube on the Tubliss system doesn't get a puncture or leak.

I suppose for double protection one could seal the spokes and use the Tubliss motorcycle system. :giggle:

The little red tube in the Tubliss system is pretty darned tough. I would say that anything that kills it would involve a catastrophic failure no matter what system of holding air you are using.

It is the size of a bicycle tube but stiffer. You pump it up to 100 psi and it clinches the beads tightly to the rims. Plug leaks without removing the tire.

Only hard part of the deal is installation, but that should only happen once per tire.

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The little red tube in the Tubliss system is pretty darned tough. I would say that anything that kills it would involve a catastrophic failure no matter what system of holding air you are using.

It is the size of a bicycle tube but stiffer. You pump it up to 100 psi and it clinches the beads tightly to the rims. Plug leaks without removing the tire.

Only hard part of the deal is installation, but that should only happen once per tire.

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They still don't recommend tubliss for street use which is unfortunate.
 

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I know people that have done it on other bikes and have had issues with air loss, not quick air loss but constant air loss and having to air up tires before every ride.

There is also the bead construction thing to think about, if you read the article i posted from Bestrest it explains the difference between a tubeless bead and a tubed bead and why they are constructed differently and why the rim is also constructed differently.

One of my friends who did this type of conversion on his KTM 350 has experienced multiple sudden bead unseats of a tubeless converted tube type tire when aired up to normal dirt bike pressure( which may just be too low). He ended up going back to tubes. His tires held air just fine for a few days at a spell, and putting around at a slow pace it was fine, the problem was when the pace picked up the bead would just fall off. Happened on the front more than the rear. He went against a lot of advice on KTM forums when he did his conversion since like most of us he hates fixing tubes. It did not work out for him and i think he is lucky he didn't get hurt.

His experience is why i have never considered a tubeless on the TW. I like to run ~12psi off road which may not be enough to keep the tire on the rim.
So are you telling us that 12psi in a tube will keep a tire on the rim but the same 12psi will not keep in on the rim without a tube? What is the tube doing besides holding air? It is the same 12psi no matter what is holding it. The only difference would be that if you broke the bead loose the tube might hold air until you pinched it. Then try to patch a pinch tube on the trail.
 

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What i am saying is you run a much higher risk of popping a bead at low psi with a setup like yours than you do with a tube. Think about it, when the tire flexes and if the bead looses seal for a quick second where is the air going to go? In the case of the tubeless its gone, in the case of a tube well it stays put and the tire is going to stay inflated. One of the functions of the tube is to hold the bead in place so yea it will hold it on. There is plenty of data out there from people that have studied doing mods like this that support what i am saying.

Bottom line, its your bike do what you want but just because " it worked for me" does not make it safe or make it any less sketchy of a modification to make. Me personally i would much rather patch/replace a tube than put my own safety at risk.
 

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Some really good info here, tape, goop and tubliss all work but no one mentioned the first most important step is to tighten yer spokes and true your rim. I have a bike with OEM tubeless and it doesn’t like spoke adjustments.

Dirt bikes use a rim lock to keep the tire mounted (run two and you can run flat) but you can’t run rim locks with tape or goop so the TuBliss system that seals the spokes and acts as a rim lock is genius. Retarded expensive but a great product.

Also ymmv but twice now I have ridden my TW back on a rear flat, the first time It was a long hard ride out across sand rock and then a dry lake. I was amazed it stayed on when I needed traction in the rocks but even more surprised when it started running true at higher speeds on the playa. The 2nd time I got a rear flat I didn’t even flinch just headed back to camp disappointed but glad I haven’t been able to break this yet.
 

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So are you telling us that 12psi in a tube will keep a tire on the rim but the same 12psi will not keep in on the rim without a tube?.....
In the video of spoke sealing by BestRest Products, they recommend not going below 20 psi to keep the tired beaded:


jb
 

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What i am saying is you run a much higher risk of popping a bead at low psi with a setup like yours than you do with a tube. Think about it, when the tire flexes and if the bead looses seal for a quick second where is the air going to go? In the case of the tubeless its gone, in the case of a tube well it stays put and the tire is going to stay inflated.
If you pop a bead with a tube for a second where does the tube go? It couldn't be between the rim and the bead could it? Anytime you run low air pressure you run the risk of a flat or bending the rim getting a flat. I am just telling you what has worked for 10 years. I do not think the risk is any greater than any other tubeless tire. I would be willing to bet you can not find a tire or motorcycle manufacturer that recommends running a tire with only 12psi.
 

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Please go google dirt bike tire pressure, 12psi will literally be the first thing you see. Its been the starting point for pressure for decades on off road bikes and you go up or down from there depending on conditions. Like back when i rode in sand a lot i ran as low as 8 in the rear and 10 front. The trials guys run like 5 in their tires.

I don't run 12 on the street, that is way to low, its off road only where my TW spends a lot of time.

When it comes to tubes and pinched beads all i can tell you is i have never personally had it happen to me in over 40 years of off road riding. Every flat i have ever had was caused by a puncture leading me to have to pull somethign out of the tire. Can it happen, sure of that i have no doubt about that, but in all my years and many thousands of miles i personally have never seen it myself.

I get that YOU don't think the risk is any higher but there is nobody in the motorcycle industry that recommends doing such a conversion for safety reasons. As i said before, its your bike do with it as you wish. I personally err on the side of safety and would never suggest someone do something that is considered risky even i if would do it myself.
 

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Instinct suggests that if you run a tubeless at seriously low pressure, over bouncy ground, you will end up losing the bead and so any remaining pressure. Just what constitutes “seriously low pressure” depends on the terrain, weight of rider, and weight of bike – thus, there is no simple “rule”

Likewise, a tubed tire is at risk at low pressure for much the same reasons, but in this case, it is that the tire will rotate tearing the tube - but there is still a risk, if only to the rim in both cases

It would take a team of scientists 12 years on a range of bikes over varied terrain to take even a wild guess of what happens using different tires, alloy wheels, trailer wheels, spoked wheels – the variations are endless

As much as this is a fascinating discussion, you have more chance of flattening a rim or loosening spokes using lower pressures than you do of ever coming up with a definitive answer to this question. Trailer wheels running ATV tires vs stock setup is like comparing chalk and cheese, not to mention sand vs rocks'

Use whatever you like – in any way you like – you’ll soon learn what works ……
 

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[QU

Please go google dirt bike tire pressure, 12psi will literally be the first thing you see. Its been the starting point for pressure for decades on off road bikes and you go up or down from there depending on conditions. Like back when i rode in sand a lot i ran as low as 8 in the rear and 10 front. The trials guys run like 5 in their tires.

I don't run 12 on the street, that is way to low, its off road only where my TW spends a lot of time.

I get that YOU don't think the risk is any higher but there is nobody in the motorcycle industry that recommends doing such a conversion for safety reasons. As i said before, its your bike do with it as you wish. I personally err on the side of safety and would never suggest someone do something that is considered risky even i if would do it myself.
I googled dirt bike tire pressure and could not find one tire or motorcycle manufacturer who recommended 12 psi. I did find web pages saying the same thing about tire pressure but nothing to show it was recommended by a manufacturer.
I did find this. What are correct motorcycle tyre pressures? - Motorbike Writer ----The first and most important point is that you should follow the pressures stated by the motorcycle manufacturer for any particular motorcycle. ---I f you choose to do different you are not err on the side of safety. I have never suggested that someone should do what I do. The question was ask and I stated what
I have been doing for 10 years. You do what you want. I have been ridding for over 50 years on and off road and sometimes I might have low pressure with no tube and sometime I will have a tube depending which bike I am ridding.
I believe the question was about tubeless tires and rims.
I found this.
Proper inflation is key to the life and performance of your tires. Refer to this chart for correct amounts.

  • Hard Conditions: Front / Rear: 12.5-13.5 ~ 14 psi
  • Intermediate Conditions: Front / Rear: 12.5-13.5 ~ 14 psi
  • Soft Conditions: Front / Rear: 12.5-13.5 ~ 14 psi
  • Minis -13 ~ 14 psi
Care & Maintenance |Dunlop Motorcycle Tires- Street & Off-Road Tires
 

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I choose cheese over chalk any day. That darned chalk binds me up in the guts and it tastes like that moldy Chinese drywall.

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