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Discussion Starter #1
Here is my start at a topic for the "Win a TW200 Rear Rack" contest...





My 1991 TW200 has some serious CDI issues, and so during a bout of insanity I decided to see what makes it tick, and if it could be repaired. So far, no pictures or representations of the inside of a TW200 CDI are available online, to my knowledge.





Overview/Model Info



The following year ranges have different CDIs. Not all TW200 CDI units are the same!



1987- only year with this crazy one

(1988-1997) 2YG-85540-M0-00

(1998-2000) 2YG-85540-10-00

(2001-2011) 5LB-85540-01-00



2010 TW CDI is $161.00

2000 TW CDI is $197.00

1996 TW CDI is $286.00





*** Special Note: Zongshen 200 dualsport motorcycles are apparently a chinese knock-off of the TW200 engine. The CDI units cost ~$25 so it would be nice to be able to use them. Unfortunately this post http://www.chinariders.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11174&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 says that they are incompatible. Further information provided later in this thread you are reading shows that they will not work.



Forum Threads / Links:



TW200 Specific:

http://tw200forum.com/forums/95943/ShowPost.aspx (broken images, good info)



http://tw200forum.com/forums/88852/ShowPost.aspx (test info for stators, pulse coil, charging coil, rectifier, cdi, oscilloscope trace images!!)



http://tw200forum.com/forums/88258/ShowPost.aspx (good info)



http://tw200forum.com/forums/99658/ShowPost.aspx ("could it be the cdi?")



http://tw200forum.com/index.php?/topic/2570-cdi/ (current thread with good info)



http://tw200forum.com/index.php?/topic/2618-87-with-94-cdi/ ("'87 with '94 cdi?")



http://tw200forum.com/index.php?/topic/2607-wtb-90s-cdi/ (discussion regarding conversion from '88-'00 CDI to newer style '01+ CDI)





"General" or not TW200 Specific:



http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-290641.html (good troubleshooting info, description of possible issues, etc)



http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-965526.html (good information regarding chemicals that can be used to dissolve the "potting compound")



http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=377930 (interesting thread about heating CDI with a heat gun until it is too hot to touch -- I tried this and it worked for a day)



http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-584367.html (general CDI repair thread - excellent information)



http://www.transmic.net/en/yamaha.htm (How a yamaha CDI works (XT600))



http://www.dragonfly75.com/moto/CDI-mod.html (timing curve info)



http://www.dragonfly75.com/moto/CDI.html (cdi circuit modification and repair)



http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=559136 ("XT550 - How to soften the epoxy/rubber?" - discusses building analog CDI to verify original is faulty, good links and pictures)



http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/IgnitionFAQ.html (LARGE resource of information about motorcycle ignitions, intended for Yamaha Vision owners but has vast amounts of applicable info)



http://www.btinternet.com/~jhpart/bkns125a.htm (DIY CDI information. Not sure how a CDI works? This is the page to start reading) - "If you have no advance and retard unit on your four stroke, then the electronic ignition just does this job and building your own is going to be difficult or expensive, so simply buy the correct CDI unit. " --- Per a post in this thread, I believe the TW200 CDI has the timing advance built into the circuit, and so building your own CDI would be quite difficult.



http://www.transmic.net/en/home.htm (DIY CDI for XT400-550-600, and building analog CDIs)



http://peony888.com/VS/programmableCDI.htm (Programmable CDI/TCI Ignition)

http://www.keterex.com/kx1130.php (KX1130 Ignition Controller IC)



Mega/Microsquirt (standalone aftermarket ignition... can also be used to control fuel injection):



http://www.microsquirt.info/

http://www.megasquirt.info/

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=23004 (converting suzuki DR650 to wasted spark ignition with megasquirt)

http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=23497 (Microsquirt Newbie: ignition only setup on a small 4-stroke single)





Jaycar High Energy Ignition kits:



http://www.jaycar.us/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&keywords=ignition&form=KEYWORD

http://www.jaycar.us/productView.asp?ID=KC5443&keywords=ignition&form=KEYWORD

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/36285088/kc5442_Programmable_High_Energy_Ignition_System.pdf (jaycar HEI kit (37page pdf))

http://www.megasquirt.info/



http://www.electronics.gompy.net/ (Gompy's open source CDI system)





Disassembly/Repair



http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=204 (fixing cracked traces on circuit boards)



Standard Disclaimer: I am no way responsible for you trying to do something like what is presented here and frying a $2-300 piece of sensitive electronics. If the pictures look uncomfortable, the job will be even more so. You are not too late to turn back now!





The project started out by disassembling the CDI. Not something that is recommended unless you never get bored or sick of a project. The CDI is a plastic box which contains a couple of circuit boards, in the case of my 1991. The circuit boards are put inside the plastic box and then it is filled with a terrible nasty rubberish epoxy stuff that could only have come from the mind of the most hateful engineer.







A cordless dremel tool with a cutoff wheel was used to make incisions around the edges of the box. After the cover piece was removed in small bits (the case was brittle and simply chipped apart), I was totally scared and not sure what to do. All that could be seen was some black goo, with no indication of how far down the sensitive electronics were.



The bottom of the case was then cut off, so that I could see where the edge of the circuit board was, so as to know how deep to "dig" with a screwdriver when removing the goo.







It turns out that in the end of the CDI opposite where the wires enter, there is a secondary circuit board that is above the primary. This board is at an angle and can be quite deceiving if you think it is the only thing in the box...







After that discovery, the sides of the plastic CDI box were cut off with the dremel, to determine the ACTUAL depth of the main circuit board.











From here it is much like an archaelogical dig... Slowly remove "the black goo" with a pick, screwdriver, knife, chisel, or whatever... All while being extremely careful to not destroy anything on the circuit board.







The back of the case was then removed bit by bit, so that the underside of the board could be examined. There is only a thin layer of goo between the circuit board and the plastic case, so BE CAREFUL!







Here you can see corrosion on the solder joints at the end of the board. This is where all of the wires from the external connectors join the circuit board.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Progress so far in diagnosing/repairing the pictured CDI:



All wires have continuity from the point where they connect to the bike's wiring harness to the solder joints on the back side of the board.



All printed circuits have continuity from these solder joints further into the board. Nothing seems to have continuity that should not (circuits seem to be isolated still).



All solder joints on board look OK - corroded connections shown above were cleaned up



Large brown-ish 225k capacitor tests OK @ 225k



Light blue smaller capacitors on side test OK @ .47



** Purple capacitors do not test OK -- ~~27 and ~18 rather than 47 each **



A note about these purple capacitors: I have replaced almost the exact same part in several Dell LCD monitors in the past couple of years. In the case of the monitors though, the capacitors had visibly failed.































 

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I've taken a couple of them apart, but never was able to get them chipped down that far without damage.



Both were '87's, but slightly different to one another in that one was solid resin and the other appeared to be black silicone followed my the resin matrix, which was easier to take apart.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Those first two posts and this one reserved for added info should be plenty... I wouldn't mind if this thread turns into a discussion unless it is forbidden in the "win a rear rack" rules







<edit>



Here are pics of the CDI with three new 50v 47uf capacitors soldered in (new shiny green capacitors) as well as an NEC 2p4m SCR/thyristor































 

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Discussion Starter #6
I've taken a couple of them apart, but never was able to get them chipped down that far without damage.



Both were '87's, but slightly different to one another in that one was solid resin and the other appeared to be black silicone followed my the resin matrix, which was easier to take apart.




I spent about another 1.5hrs last night in front of the TV chipping away at it. Forgot to take pics but it is even more exposed now. The bike was ridden yesterday with it as shown in the pics above, I just stuffed it in a cigarette pack and used the rubber clip to put it back in the bike. It was running much better but still had some sputtering and other issues.



The initial problem was as described in several other "bad cdi" posts, where the bike would be OK at low RPM but would act like it was out of gas and totally bog down at higher RPM. This seems to have gone away but it is still not firing properly...













^^ posted by demarko69 in "1987 ignition problem" thread





If I am reading this correctly.......





Green, White, Brown, Red go from CDI -> magneto



blue/yellow -> sidestand switch



black -> "handlebar switch(left)" - turn, horn, lights



blue -> clutch switch



orange -> ignition coil



black/white -> kill switch







Now I need to find the "post 2001 supplement" or something, I guess?



<edit>



post '01 supplement shows



a/c magneto :



w/r, w/l, b/r, g/w -> cdi



l/y goes from CDI -> main switch



Orange goes from CDI -> coil



Black(?) goes from CDI -> ground



One pin on 8pin connector appears unused, with an "X" showing in the pinout diagram of the connector
 

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Yes, I've had them go bad and was able to get them to run right by turning the CDI upside down, sideways, etc. Doesn't make a lot of sense since they're solid state and smothered in resin, but they would work.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yes, I've had them go bad and was able to get them to run right by turning the CDI upside down, sideways, etc. Doesn't make a lot of sense since they're solid state and smothered in resin, but they would work.




Yes these are some strange beasts. I just added a link to the first post to a forum topic about heating up the CDI with a heat gun. The original poster said it would get him 60 days of use. I tried it and it worked great for a day but then was back to normal.



Going to get some replacement capacitors for the 50v 47k purple caps on my lunch break, and solder them in tonight to see what happens.
 

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This is all way above my head
but interesting none the less. Electronics and me have never seen eye to eye.

Keep us updated please and I may grasp this modern technology one day.
 

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This is all way above my head
but interesting none the less. Electronics and me have never seen eye to eye.

Keep us updated please and I may grasp this modern technology one day.


Don't worry, there are pieces of this beast that I don't understand either, even with a fancy college edjumacation.



My local electronics supply did not have the proper capacitors, so I have placed an order online and should have them in "2-4 days"



Your username just brought me back to a post I stumbled upon the other day, where someone said they have a TW200 running fine on a TW125 CDI... Anyone have any more info about this? I can't seem to bring the post up.
 

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I'm with uktw125, way above my knowledge level. But I think it's pretty cool what you are doing. You never know, someone (even me) might get something out of this in the future. I applaud your efforts so far, good job.
 

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I've witnessed him repair things much more difficult to understand.. though less coated in black mystery goo: I'll be surprised if he doesn't save $250 and a few weeks out of this one.. Worst case: everyone learns something, and he still needs a new CDI. Big win.



Untangling the mysteries of the only real black box on a TW
*wildly clapping*
 

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In my buisiness we call things like our CDI's "FM".
 

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Your username just brought me back to a post I stumbled upon the other day, where someone said they have a TW200 running fine on a TW125 CDI... Anyone have any more info about this? I can't seem to bring the post up.


That was me, in the UK we only got 125's so I have converted a couple to 200 and 225 with 125 ignitions.

I found some info a while a go that said the 125's go to 30 degrees full advance and 200's go to 29 degrees full advance at 1000 RPM less.



This does not have much if any real affects. Possibly allows the 200's with 125 ignitions to rev higher.

Qwerty will know the technicalities and theory of ignition advance....Qwerty????
 

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Discussion Starter #15
That was me, in the UK we only got 125's so I have converted a couple to 200 and 225 with 125 ignitions.

I found some info a while a go that said the 125's go to 30 degrees full advance and 200's go to 29 degrees full advance at 1000 RPM less.



This does not have much if any real affects. Possibly allows the 200's with 125 ignitions to rev higher.

Qwerty will know the technicalities and theory of ignition advance....Qwerty????




I've read a bunch of qwerty's posts and he surely knows a ton more than I do




Very cool about the TW125 CDI working fine. That is helpful information all by itself.



Really if this thing doesn't end up working after being mucked about with, it is no big deal as jontow stated. The bike needs a new CDI, so either one gets purchased, the broken one gets repaired, or the broken one gets more broken and a new one gets purchased...



What I think this post might be really helpful for is for people that have some of the easier symptoms to fix that have been described online such as broken wire connections at the board or obviously cold or cracked solder joints. Having pictures of the inside of the CDI makes it much easier to know what you are getting into, and more specifically what to watch out for when you are there. Along with that, if you had some visibly blown capacitors you could start there as well.



Thanks for the encouragement everybody
 

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Gads, it's been a long time since I've been on this forum. Still have my '90 TW200 but have not been active here.



Anyway, no the Zongshen 200 ignition module will not work on the TW200. The Zong uses a scheme used on many Chinese motorcycles these days and their ignition modules are dirt cheap compared to TW200 modules. I recently picked up one of the less common Chinese 4-pin modules to see if they do advance. The cool thing about the 4-pin modules (Not 5-pin or 4-pin plus 2-pin or 6-pin.) is that they use 12 volts instead of having a high voltage winding on the stator. (They have a high voltage DC to DC converter in them that takes care of the high voltage to charge C.) They have 12 volts in, trigger coil in and an output to the ignition coil. I was hoping they had some sort of advance but the one I tested didn't. However, it did solve the ignition problem I had with my test mule, a Kohler K301 on my '69 Gravely ;o) I paid under $35 for a new module and coil on eBay. I *think* there might be some 4-pin modules (white connector housing instead of green.) that *do* incorporate some sort of advance. We'll see...



Keep up the good work!
 

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Bonus points for coming up with the handle, which now appears rather succinct....
 

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Discussion Starter #18
An interesting fact:



When attempting to cross reference CDI part numbers with google, I found that the 1998 Yamaha WR400 also uses part number 2YG-85540-M0-00. They aren't cheaper, but could maybe found used if one from a tdub cannot.



Don't tell the WR400 guys or they will steal all our used CDIs
 

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<edited>



An interesting non-fact:



When attempting to cross reference CDI part numbers with google, I found a forum post that says the 1998 Yamaha WR400 also uses part number 2YG-85540-M0-00.



<edit:> When using Stadium Yamaha to look up part numbers this proves to not be true. The part number is close but not the same. Sorry if anyone else's hopes were falsely elevated.
 

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If the timing advance is correct, I'm not sure why one wouldn't be able to get away with using an XT250 or XT225 CDI, provided they were willing to look up wiring diagrams and do some splicing... Anyone have any thoughts on this? Some of you guys have gotten pretty deep into CDI stuff in the past, I've seen the posts on this forum






2012 tw200 bore x stroke 67mm x 55.7mm CR 9.5:1



2012 xt250 bore x stroke 74mm x 58mm CR 9.5:1





This may be an oversimplification, but do you think Yamaha would really change stuff THAT much for engines that are pretty similar? From most of my reading, they all work the same and work on the same principles. As long as they are meant to do close to the same thing, it seems like the wiring could be adapted to make it work at least "OK". Have also seen evidence of this in multiple places online, such as the person on this forum recently that had a kawasaki CDI making his bike work (albeit poorly) and Fourcycle's zongshen CDI on a kohler motor.



I also need to do some wiring diagram examining today on a big computer screen. My bike only needs the red wire and the 4 and 2pin connectors coming from the CDI in order to run. Unplugging the brown, yellow, and black with white had absolutely no effect on the operation that I could find.





To update on my CDI, it is running the bike much better with no changes other than removing case and potting compound, and cleaning up some corrosion. I did bend the large 225k capacitor upwards to remove the potting compound covering the components underneath it, and am wondering if bending these contacts are what caused the change.



Either way, it seems that the timing is not advancing properly or something like that. The bike "runs fine" as I said, but just makes hardly any power. Top speed is now 45-50mph with stock gearing, and it has nowhere near the torque it used to have. Nothing sounds abnormal about the way it is running, it doesn't vibrate any more than usual or anything like that, just not much power.



It was suggested that I use a timing light to see if this theory was correct, but all that accomplished was spraying oil all over the driveway when I started the engine with the small timing hole cover removed from the left case... Woops!



Any ideas on how to verify if my timing non-advance theory is correct?
 
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