Back min the olden days engines didn't even have timing marks. Put the piston at TDC ar rhe end of the squeeze stroke/beginning of the bang stroke. Adjust valve clearances. Go ride. If the engine runs right, don't worry about it.
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Valve clearance question - HELP!!!
EDIT: Sorry about the double post. Don't know how that happened. Mod delete the other one if no one has posted a reply on it?
Haven't been using this forum much at all lately, I've been so damned busy! Hello everyone!
Bear with me...
First, rest assured that I have spent lots of time searching and have been unable to find any solid answers to my specific question(s). I recently purchased a used 2007 Kawasaki Ninja 500, with three thousand miles on it, in what appeared to be pretty much mint condition. Although I did adjust the drive chain slack and tire pressure, and change the engine oil and filter pretty quickly, I foolishly rode the bike for about two thousand miles before getting to major maintenance items. My first problem/question has to do with setting each of the pistons to TDC on the compression stroke, in order to check the valve clearances. When following the procedure in my "Cyclepedia" service manual, the number 2 cylinder IS at TDC as it should be when the "C" mark is in the middle of the timing check window or whatever it's called, the dot on the cam chain sprocket is facing up (also as it says in the manual), and the cam lobes for that cylinder are facing up (not pushing down on the valves at all) as they should be (right??...lol) when the piston is at TDC on the compression stroke. However, following this same procedure as described in the service manual to set the piston in the number 1 cylinder to TDC does seem to set that piston to TDC, but I believe it to be on the exhaust stroke. At this point (when the "T" mark is in the timing check window), the dot on the cam sprocket is facing toward the BACK of the bike, instead of toward the FRONT of the bike as it says in the service manual that it should be. There is also a photograph in the manual that shows where the dot should be (facing the front of the bike) when the T mark is showing on the compression stroke. If I ignore the "T" mark and just turn the crankshaft approximately until the number 1 cylinder's cam lobes are facing up, the dot on the cam sprocket IS facing the front of the bike, and the piston is at TDC (on the compression stroke it would seem...). So the only explanation is that that "T" mark is off 180 degrees, right!? Note that I read up on the valve adjustment procedure from at least three different online sources including my service manual, and quintuple-checked everything, and thought about it all several times over, etc. Oh and it's also noteworthy I suppose that I have successfully adjusted the valves on my TW200 and my DR200 in the past, which are also both screw type adjusters with lock nuts, the same as the Ninja.
I try to write more concisely but it's as if I'm incapable of doing so, sorry lol...
Anyway question number two (smoke break now? lol):
Following the above procedure (cam lobes facing up and dot on cam sprocket in correct position for the number one cylinder; exactly as described in service manual for number two cylinder...), all my valves are way tight. The best of them being right on the edge of the tightest clearance of the specified range, the worst of them being about .051 mm! This is less than one third of the clearance specified in the manual (and verified from other online sources) for the exhaust valves! And yes I have made sure the decimals are correct, the feeler gauges are not stuck together, it is mm not inches, etc. I am trying to figure out exactly what kind of damage this may have caused and how bad it could be. Burned exhaust valves, valve heads wearing into valve seats, etc. From what I've read it seems these things WILL likely happen over time, but specifically HOW MUCH time (as in, 2k miles, or 30k miles...)? The valves could have been, and probably were, continually tightening up for as much as four thousand miles - could that give me huge problems? Or it will be ok...? Oh yes and also worth noting is that the engine seemed to run great, good power, smooth throttle response, etc, before I opened it up to check the valve clearances. The only issue (I thought it may have been normal?) was that the bike seemed to take a long time to warm up and idle properly when starting COLD, even with the choke on full (like two and a half minutes maybe before it would idle smoothly without choke). And it did seem to have low power at low RPM (felt more like a Ninja 250 before 6 thousand RPM), but it was a real screamer from 8-10k RPM. That's when you'd know damn well it was a 500! I had read online that the Ninja 500 engine is like that normally though, so I didn't think much of it. I did learn today that, supposedly, tighter valve clearances tend to change the power delivery to more at high RPM, less at low RPM, with the opposite for loose valves (is that true?). This seems like it makes sense in my case as the valves are REALLY tight and it feels like a 250 at low RPM and almost like a 600 at high RPM lol, although I'm sure part of that is just the normal characteristics of the Ninja 500 engine. Any intelligent responses will be GREATLY appreciated, thank you VERY much in advance!!!
Haven't been using this forum much at all lately, I've been so damned busy! Hello everyone!
Bear with me...
First, rest assured that I have spent lots of time searching and have been unable to find any solid answers to my specific question(s). I recently purchased a used 2007 Kawasaki Ninja 500, with three thousand miles on it, in what appeared to be pretty much mint condition. Although I did adjust the drive chain slack and tire pressure, and change the engine oil and filter pretty quickly, I foolishly rode the bike for about two thousand miles before getting to major maintenance items. My first problem/question has to do with setting each of the pistons to TDC on the compression stroke, in order to check the valve clearances. When following the procedure in my "Cyclepedia" service manual, the number 2 cylinder IS at TDC as it should be when the "C" mark is in the middle of the timing check window or whatever it's called, the dot on the cam chain sprocket is facing up (also as it says in the manual), and the cam lobes for that cylinder are facing up (not pushing down on the valves at all) as they should be (right??...lol) when the piston is at TDC on the compression stroke. However, following this same procedure as described in the service manual to set the piston in the number 1 cylinder to TDC does seem to set that piston to TDC, but I believe it to be on the exhaust stroke. At this point (when the "T" mark is in the timing check window), the dot on the cam sprocket is facing toward the BACK of the bike, instead of toward the FRONT of the bike as it says in the service manual that it should be. There is also a photograph in the manual that shows where the dot should be (facing the front of the bike) when the T mark is showing on the compression stroke. If I ignore the "T" mark and just turn the crankshaft approximately until the number 1 cylinder's cam lobes are facing up, the dot on the cam sprocket IS facing the front of the bike, and the piston is at TDC (on the compression stroke it would seem...). So the only explanation is that that "T" mark is off 180 degrees, right!? Note that I read up on the valve adjustment procedure from at least three different online sources including my service manual, and quintuple-checked everything, and thought about it all several times over, etc. Oh and it's also noteworthy I suppose that I have successfully adjusted the valves on my TW200 and my DR200 in the past, which are also both screw type adjusters with lock nuts, the same as the Ninja.
I try to write more concisely but it's as if I'm incapable of doing so, sorry lol...
Anyway question number two (smoke break now? lol):
Following the above procedure (cam lobes facing up and dot on cam sprocket in correct position for the number one cylinder; exactly as described in service manual for number two cylinder...), all my valves are way tight. The best of them being right on the edge of the tightest clearance of the specified range, the worst of them being about .051 mm! This is less than one third of the clearance specified in the manual (and verified from other online sources) for the exhaust valves! And yes I have made sure the decimals are correct, the feeler gauges are not stuck together, it is mm not inches, etc. I am trying to figure out exactly what kind of damage this may have caused and how bad it could be. Burned exhaust valves, valve heads wearing into valve seats, etc. From what I've read it seems these things WILL likely happen over time, but specifically HOW MUCH time (as in, 2k miles, or 30k miles...)? The valves could have been, and probably were, continually tightening up for as much as four thousand miles - could that give me huge problems? Or it will be ok...? Oh yes and also worth noting is that the engine seemed to run great, good power, smooth throttle response, etc, before I opened it up to check the valve clearances. The only issue (I thought it may have been normal?) was that the bike seemed to take a long time to warm up and idle properly when starting COLD, even with the choke on full (like two and a half minutes maybe before it would idle smoothly without choke). And it did seem to have low power at low RPM (felt more like a Ninja 250 before 6 thousand RPM), but it was a real screamer from 8-10k RPM. That's when you'd know damn well it was a 500! I had read online that the Ninja 500 engine is like that normally though, so I didn't think much of it. I did learn today that, supposedly, tighter valve clearances tend to change the power delivery to more at high RPM, less at low RPM, with the opposite for loose valves (is that true?). This seems like it makes sense in my case as the valves are REALLY tight and it feels like a 250 at low RPM and almost like a 600 at high RPM lol, although I'm sure part of that is just the normal characteristics of the Ninja 500 engine. Any intelligent responses will be GREATLY appreciated, thank you VERY much in advance!!!
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Thanks for your reply. I'm mostly worried about the possibility of excessive top end wear, which could give me an even bigger headache down the road. If the motor wasn't running poorly (at least when warm), this is a good sign that the valves are ok, I suppose? Just sort of fishing for something more concrete.
If damge has been done, damage has been done. You can't undo damage with worry. Adjust the valves. Ride. If all is good, all is good. If not, diagnose the problem from there.
I expect EPA mandated engine tune is contributing to you cold start problems. No different from a TW or any other recent bikes with carbs.
I expect EPA mandated engine tune is contributing to you cold start problems. No different from a TW or any other recent bikes with carbs.
My TW and DR200 warm up about four or five times faster than the Ninja on a cold day. I know worrying won't undo the damage, but I still want to know if there is damage if at all possible without pulling the head. And you're right about the smog stuff being partially responsible for the long warm ups, as I suspected it might, and have since confirmed. Oh and I just read your name, didn't realize it was you Qwerty. Thanks again for the input. Maintenance on this street bike is turning out to be such a hassle compared to the little enduros that I'm actually considering (half seriously) selling the Ninja if I get the valves adjusted and everything back together in proper order... Maybe buy a DR650 or something instead. But probably I'll end up keeping it. I'm just going to be really sour if I don't get at least 25 thousand more trouble free miles out of that damn Ninja.
A compression test should answer your questions. Buy or borrow a compression tester and get the compression specs from on line or a manual.
If compression is within spec, most likely no damage has been done. Other thing to look for, are both pistons within 10 psi or less of each other?
Even 15 psi difference is stil usable but not great.
If not, worry will not fix them. Head removal may be needed.
Phelonius
If compression is within spec, most likely no damage has been done. Other thing to look for, are both pistons within 10 psi or less of each other?
Even 15 psi difference is stil usable but not great.
If not, worry will not fix them. Head removal may be needed.
Phelonius
The Ninja 500 is an excellent bike. That Kawasaki engine has proven itself over many years and millions of miles. So good, in fact, I'd definately grind the valves and keep the bike. As Phelonius says, test the compression once everything is together. If good, no problem. If low, dump a bit of oil in the spark plug holes and test again. If the compression comes up, the rings are bad. If oil makes no difference, low compression is usually a head gasket or valve seat problem.
Order 1 size bigger main jets than are in it. Visit the local hobby shop for washers to fit over the needles. Put the washers on a smooth, flat surface and tap them just enough to knock the little sharp stamping flange off. Open the pilot screws one full turn. That is what the last engine of that family I tuned took and should be closer to perfect than stock. DO NOT REMOVE THE CARBS FROM THE BIKE OR MESS WITH THE THROTTLE LINKAGE unless you absolutely have to. Synchronizing the carbs is a hassle. Pick a rainy day to learn how to do it.
Order 1 size bigger main jets than are in it. Visit the local hobby shop for washers to fit over the needles. Put the washers on a smooth, flat surface and tap them just enough to knock the little sharp stamping flange off. Open the pilot screws one full turn. That is what the last engine of that family I tuned took and should be closer to perfect than stock. DO NOT REMOVE THE CARBS FROM THE BIKE OR MESS WITH THE THROTTLE LINKAGE unless you absolutely have to. Synchronizing the carbs is a hassle. Pick a rainy day to learn how to do it.
kj7687,
You have to remember that the camshaft only turns half a revolution (180 Deg) for every full (360 Deg) revolution of the crankshaft.
So... in the situation you posted above about the timing dots facing 180 Deg off, you would turn the crankshaft another full revolution. I'll bet you find the T mark will be right on.
As for the valve clearances, I would definitely ensure TDC on compression stroke first, then adjust to proper specs. It is true you can damage valves with them set too tight, but I would adjust everything and ride the heck out of it. No sense worrying about damage that could have happened. Just prevent future damage!
Hope that helps.
You have to remember that the camshaft only turns half a revolution (180 Deg) for every full (360 Deg) revolution of the crankshaft.
So... in the situation you posted above about the timing dots facing 180 Deg off, you would turn the crankshaft another full revolution. I'll bet you find the T mark will be right on.
As for the valve clearances, I would definitely ensure TDC on compression stroke first, then adjust to proper specs. It is true you can damage valves with them set too tight, but I would adjust everything and ride the heck out of it. No sense worrying about damage that could have happened. Just prevent future damage!
Hope that helps.
I feel like writing a big, nasty, whiny sob story right now, because this bike and this whole situation is really getting on my nerves big time! But it would be a waste of time, so I'll refrain. Thanks for the replies people. I will do a compression test. Also, I already disconnected the throttle cables. But it's fine as I was planning on doing a carb sync anyway, and I bought a tool (Morgan Carbtune) with which to do that. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
EB1156: I rotated the crankshaft around several times and the T mark didn't line up when the dot on the cam sprocket was where it should be, OR when the dot was 180 degrees off. But thanks.
EB1156: I rotated the crankshaft around several times and the T mark didn't line up when the dot on the cam sprocket was where it should be, OR when the dot was 180 degrees off. But thanks.
I feel like writing a big, nasty, whiny sob story right now, because this bike and this whole situation is really getting on my nerves big time! But it would be a waste of time, so I'll refrain. Thanks for the replies people. I will do a compression test. Also, I already disconnected the throttle cables. But it's fine as I was planning on doing a carb sync anyway, and I bought a tool (Morgan Carbtune) with which to do that. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
EB1156: I rotated the crankshaft around several times and the T mark didn't line up when the dot on the cam sprocket was where it should be, OR when the dot was 180 degrees off. But thanks.
If you're getting all emotional it's time to pull on your big-boy panties and GET 'ER DONE!
Have you read the instructions? Have you been to http://www.ex-500.com/ ? It's a machine, not a woman.
It's a simple matter of following the instructions step-by-step. Always is. Most common mistake people make is not reading and following the step-by-step instruction. I expect there is some minor detail in the instructions that you are over-looking. Once you figure it out, it will seem so obvious you'll feel really stupid. Take a break, relax, kick up your feet, peruse the shop manual like it was a Playboy, you'll figure it out.
Don't make the mistake of compounding problems by starting another repair/adjustment without completing the first repair/ adjustment. That's the second most common mistake people make.
The Morgan Carbtune is the best synchronizer available. Good choice. (I use a homemade tool made of clear plastic tubing, a board, and using motor oil for an indicator. Cheap choice.)
If you're getting all emotional it's time to pull on your big-boy panties and GET 'ER DONE!
Have you read the instructions? Have you been to http://www.ex-500.com/ ? It's a machine, not a woman.
It's a simple matter of following the instructions step-by-step. Always is. Most common mistake people make is not reading and following the step-by-step instruction. I expect there is some minor detail in the instructions that you are over-looking. Once you figure it out, it will seem so obvious you'll feel really stupid. Take a break, relax, kick up your feet, peruse the shop manual like it was a Playboy, you'll figure it out.
Don't make the mistake of compounding problems by starting another repair/adjustment without completing the first repair/ adjustment. That's the second most common mistake people make.
The Morgan Carbtune is the best synchronizer available. Good choice. (I use a homemade tool made of clear plastic tubing, a board, and using motor oil for an indicator. Cheap choice.)
I'm 100 percent certain I haven't overlooked any instructions. I have determined with absolute certainty that the "T" mark is off for the number one cylinder. The procedure described in the manual for setting the piston to TDC on the number two cylinder works precisely as described in the manual, and the mark and dot on the cam sprocket line up exactly as they should. Not so for the number one cylinder. When the piston of the number one cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke, the "T" mark is nowhere to be seen. I've gone over the instructions several times, thought about it logically several times, tried it several times, etc. The fact is that this particular timing mark is not stamped in the correct position, period. I have since (since posting all this) confirmed through research that I'm not the only one with this problem. I'm not sure I'd call it "getting all emotional" lol. Only one emotion, anger. I think any logical person would get angry after finding out they paid three grand for a machine that may have a serious and costly problem (burned valves). I will adjust the valves and sync the carbs and do a compression check and put it all back together. And yea I read that the Morgan Carbtune was the way to go, and it looks like a solid product. The only issue I had was having to wait six weeks for it to arrive from the UK after ordering. But not the end of the world... Anyway I'm over and past the issue of the timing mark, now just trying to determine if my exhaust valves are actually burned. I don't think they are, because if there was a decrease in compression due to burned valves the bike wouldn't run perfectly as it did. I'm guessing it would take more like 15 or 20 thousand miles of zero clearance valves to really burn the valves and cause a major issue. Just trying to confirm this beyond any doubt, with someone who has a greater concrete, experience-based knowledge of the subject specifically, than do I. I'm going to ask about burned valves over at ex500.com. Some of the guys on there have been through every single piece of the EX motors several times.
Sounds like Kawasaki had a QC problem. Also sounds like you caught it in time.
Pull the plug for the offending cylinder. Stick a small wooden dowel in the plug hole. Turn the crank until the dowel goes up, then starts going back down. Back up a bit until the dowel is at its highest point. TDC on that piston. Make sure both followers are on the base circles opposite the lobe overlap. Usually, if on the overlap, the rockers will be tight. Off the overlap, the rockers will have some play. Set the valves.
Pull the plug for the offending cylinder. Stick a small wooden dowel in the plug hole. Turn the crank until the dowel goes up, then starts going back down. Back up a bit until the dowel is at its highest point. TDC on that piston. Make sure both followers are on the base circles opposite the lobe overlap. Usually, if on the overlap, the rockers will be tight. Off the overlap, the rockers will have some play. Set the valves.
So I adjusted the valves to spec, did a ton of other maintenance, and put everything back together. Have been riding the bike for a few hundred miles since then and thus far it has been one hundred percent perfect! I love this bike - so much fun on a twisty road, and an awesome commuter at the same time. It seems like I did indeed catch the problem before it became serious. Thanks for the input. Look for pics of my new ride in the "off topic and other bikes" section in the near future.
So I adjusted the valves to spec, did a ton of other maintenance, and put everything back together. Have been riding the bike for a few hundred miles since then and thus far it has been one hundred percent perfect! I love this bike - so much fun on a twisty road, and an awesome commuter at the same time. It seems like I did indeed catch the problem before it became serious. Thanks for the input. Look for pics of my new ride in the "off topic and other bikes" section in the near future.
Toljasew.
If you think the 500 Ninja is great, wait until you ride the 650. I know several people who started out or worked up to a 500, then went to a I4 sport or sport touring bike or three, then to the 650. Not that much different in the twisties, not so much top end, but the maintenance is nothing costwise or timewise compaered to the I4s.
Toljasew.
If you think the 500 Ninja is great, wait until you ride the 650. I know several people who started out or worked up to a 500, then went to a I4 sport or sport touring bike or three, then to the 650. Not that much different in the twisties, not so much top end, but the maintenance is nothing costwise or timewise compaered to the I4s.
I've ridden my brother's SV650. Awesome bike, and for sure it's got a bit more low end than my 500. But even still, my bike is only a tenth of a second slower from zero to sixty. And in the quarter mile, my bike is only 1 second and 4 mph slower. And of course the riders can make the difference with these numbers (both skill-wise and in regard to rider weight - think skinny 12 year old girl versus 6' 8, 260 pound body builder...).
Uh, I was thinking of the Ninja 650. Better suspension, better brakes, 55% more torque and 13 more pounds. Can you say "ZOOM!"?
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