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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I looked seriously at TW, even made an offer on a couple used ones but didn't get them. I finally decided to purchase new and the dealer had TW's and the VV's in stock. After trying both it looked like the VV would be a better bike for me as I do little trail or off road riding but lots of county roads and farm two tracks. So far after 400 miles of riding this winter I think I made the right decision.

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Cool!
Wish my TW had the EFI & rear disc...
 

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Cool!
Wish my TW had the EFI...
 

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AWS:
Have ridden a VanVan (VV) only as a demo ride on dirt road,
Lots of TW distance on dirt. VV did seem to have a better front/rear weight balance.
TW realistic top speed is 50-55 mph,
Is VanVan's top end similar ?
Thanks for your perspective ?
 

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Looks nice. And you found the bike that serves your needs best which is even nicer.
Ride Safe and Happy.
 

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I have now owned both the van van and tw. The van van had some really nice styling for me and the efi was a bonus. But for me the power that Yamaha offers wins. I ride at high speeds on a regular basis and the Suzuki just could not get the same speed out of it. I also was afraid to damage the bike off road as it was just too nice. :)
 

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I couldn鈥檛 help myself and ante鈥檇 up for the VV. After care looking, I believe it to be a serious upgrade from the beloved TW, or maybe the VV was first? VV 125 big in SE Asia. But the big things I always wanted for TW are on the VV. Fuel injection, longer swingarm, more comfy seat, large capacity charging system, oil cooler w thermostat, round headlight, bearings on the camshaft, and more. It has the same size wonderful tires as TW but room for a larger one on rear. The VV could stand some stiffer forks. One nice thing is VV counter shaft has not the crazy outer bearing thus changing sprockets is much easier. Power? Well VV rated higher, I鈥檝e not tested it. Here in the daze of ethanol fuel, fuel injection is pretty much a must have for trouble free operation.
For me, I鈥檇 prefer to ride than work on my ride.
 

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Congrats on your new machine! Suzi had two, two-stroke RV's back in the 70's. One was a 90 and I think the other was a 125, though I'm not certain they were called Van Van here in the US.
 

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Cool!
Wish my TW had the EFI & rear disc...
Back quite a while ago, I posted a thread asking WHY the T-dub does not have fuel injection. Well, a large percentage of answerers came back with, "I'm glad it's not fuel injected, can't work on it". Or, some also stated: "If they (Yamaha) had to go to fuel injection, they'd PROBABLY drop the TW". Well, to me, those two points don't have a lot of merit. One, there's a few reasons manufacturers have gone to FI for quite a while. One, it's CONSIDERABLY MORE EFFICIENT, two, since FI's been around for decades, and, has been more and more improved over the years, those systems compensate anything and everything, including attitude Hills/grades/steepness, and, altitude, as in running at sea level and, 10,000' in the mountains with no input or alteration from the owner.

There's a tiny computer that runs the whole thing and, also a some form of a small fuel pump that supplies what's needed for a small engine. And because they've been around for such a long time, and again, have been more and more improved, the need for anyone to WORK on them, has dropped to almost nothing. I've had multiple fuel injected vehicles over the years and as of yet, not one of them has ever failed in the fuel injection system. The two Goldwing's I've had, and one I still do, have FI and without a doubt, If my finger comes close to the start button, IT'S RUNNING! And, to those that think or, are under the assumption that Yamaha would drop the T-dub if it was forced to go FI on it, while I'm not an engineer or bean counter for Yamaha, I doubt very seriously that Yamaha would drop that little bike, JUST BECAUSE it was either forced or, decided it was a better move, to go to FI. Yamaha, like Honda, Suzuki, Harley, BMW, and any other M/C maker, has dabbled in FI for years with other models.

For them to adapt to a small version of its already present FI system, would be child's play. Not exactly sure why they haven't but, I supposed it's because they haven't been forced to by EPA or any other government entity or, their system has been working so far, so why change it? But, for those have been accustomed to FI on motorcycles for a while, you know how well it works, how well it handles any form of weather, altitude, attitude, cold and hot starts, plugs last longer, and more.

For the Suzuki to go FI on the Vanvan, was a smart move. Not exactly sure why they ceased to sell them after only a year or two or three. Probably 'cause there just wasn't that much call for it vs the following of the T-dub. But, the Dub's got a rep for handling pretty decent off roading as well as street cruising. Where as, the Vanvan, as has been stated, *looks* to be way more suited for street ops. If one goes to YouTube and looks up some test drives on the Vanvan, it appears that the bike moves out pretty good. But, it appears the same for the test drives on the Dub.

So, back to the original plot here. I've never ridden a Vanvan, and, in fact I was pursuing one prior to purchasing the Dub I have. But, price was prohibitive due to there were no used ones on the market, at the time I was looking and, $5,500 Out The Door was just too much for me, due to the fact that it was gonna be a part time, small, cruise around bike anyways. So, the used Dub I purchased has sufficed quite well and, I've been quite happy with it.
Scott
 

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Back quite a while ago, I posted a thread asking WHY the T-dub does not have fuel injection. Well, a large percentage of answerers came back with, "I'm glad it's not fuel injected, can't work on it". Or, some also stated: "If they (Yamaha) had to go to fuel injection, they'd PROBABLY drop the TW". Well, to me, those two points don't have a lot of merit. One, there's a few reasons manufacturers have gone to FI for quite a while. One, it's CONSIDERABLY MORE EFFICIENT, two, since FI's been around for decades, and, has been more and more improved over the years, those systems compensate anything and everything, including attitude Hills/grades/steepness, and, altitude, as in running at sea level and, 10,000' in the mountains with no input or alteration from the owner.

There's a tiny computer that runs the whole thing and, also a some form of a small fuel pump that supplies what's needed for a small engine. And because they've been around for such a long time, and again, have been more and more improved, the need for anyone to WORK on them, has dropped to almost nothing. I've had multiple fuel injected vehicles over the years and as of yet, not one of them has ever failed in the fuel injection system. The two Goldwing's I've had, and one I still do, have FI and without a doubt, If my finger comes close to the start button, IT'S RUNNING! And, to those that think or, are under the assumption that Yamaha would drop the T-dub if it was forced to go FI on it, while I'm not an engineer or bean counter for Yamaha, I doubt very seriously that Yamaha would drop that little bike, JUST BECAUSE it was either forced or, decided it was a better move, to go to FI. Yamaha, like Honda, Suzuki, Harley, BMW, and any other M/C maker, has dabbled in FI for years with other models.

For them to adapt to a small version of its already present FI system, would be child's play. Not exactly sure why they haven't but, I supposed it's because they haven't been forced to by EPA or any other government entity or, their system has been working so far, so why change it? But, for those have been accustomed to FI on motorcycles for a while, you know how well it works, how well it handles any form of weather, altitude, attitude, cold and hot starts, plugs last longer, and more.

For the Suzuki to go FI on the Vanvan, was a smart move. Not exactly sure why they ceased to sell them after only a year or two or three. Probably 'cause there just wasn't that much call for it vs the following of the T-dub. But, the Dub's got a rep for handling pretty decent off roading as well as street cruising. Where as, the Vanvan, as has been stated, *looks* to be way more suited for street ops. If one goes to YouTube and looks up some test drives on the Vanvan, it appears that the bike moves out pretty good. But, it appears the same for the test drives on the Dub.

So, back to the original plot here. I've never ridden a Vanvan, and, in fact I was pursuing one prior to purchasing the Dub I have. But, price was prohibitive due to there were no used ones on the market, at the time I was looking and, $5,500 Out The Door was just too much for me, due to the fact that it was gonna be a part time, small, cruise around bike anyways. So, the used Dub I purchased has sufficed quite well and, I've been quite happy with it.
Scott
I'm not trying start anything here, and I'm probably too new here to get chesty, but again I'm not trying to be. I hope to speak for my fellow Luddites who simply prefer analog engine controls.
As a veteran of KTM ownership, much of their technocracy is centered around what is the absolute best design for a given application. It took some getting used to after owning/working on other makes but I did come to appreciate them. What I found inexcusable was how I would find they'd totally blow it on a given design that has had a century of history to instruct them. A great example is the clutch cover gasket on the RFS engines that would get sucked *into* the engine.
I said all of that to say a premium make like KTM shouldn't have the fuel pump failures that *seem* to be rampant...especially on bikes intended for the back country.
As an aged Luddite, I watched the teething problems of FI over the decades and was glad for the RS flatslides on my GSXR, even if they were a PITA to tune.
I recently rode the TAT on my Luddite express, a DR650. It's jetted for the Antelope Valley of CA. Here in the AV we have better air than in eastern PA even though we're 2400' higher. I crossed Engineer Pass in Colorado and the DR was running fine...not optimal, but fine. And if I'm honest, I did tighten up the pilot screw half a turn somewhere in Utah. By the time I got to PA it was super rich but operable.
I guess my point is that your success with FI could be comparable to my luck with weather and/or a tolerant CV carb.
Frankly, I dunno how picky a Tdub is about elevation - haven't tested that yet. The carb, however, does seem to be fairly tolerant of configuration changes like a Uni filter and a pipe.
I'm suspicious that a downmarket bike will end up with downmarket FI components even if it would be easy to put well-tested higher end FI on it like I inferred you saying.
Some of us are just Luddites. It's a point of pride to me that my DR has a carb and a cable-driven speedo.
I hope we can be friends.;)

Edit: I would be fine with mechanical fuel injection or perhaps a pressure carb, but then again, I'd be happier with a magneto too.
 

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I believe, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that emissions, at least for US is a corporate/manufacturer average. So that probably means that the T-Dub, at least in the US can go on carbureted until someone changes the rules. With that said, I doubt we would see a change to FI as long as the bike sells well as is and it sure seems to. While I have FI bikes and marvel at their mostly perfect fueling right out of the box, there is a certain beauty to a gravity fed carburetor that can be tweaked with less than $50.00 worth of brass jets. I don't know about the rest of you but the older I get, the simpler I like things so if it never gets updated its ok with me. I guess it would be easy enough for Yamaha to build a TW with the XT250 FI motor in it. That seems like it would be a logical progression. I think the Van Van just was not as off road friendly off the showroom floor. I could have gotten a great deal on a VV but got a 2019 TW instead and it cost me more.
 

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Fuel injection far more reliable than carbs and don鈥檛 require l鈥漷weaking鈥 That鈥檚 just a simple fact. Some folks like to fuss on theys rides. Some prefer to ride. Do Luddites also install points ignition systems? Now there鈥檚 something you can fix on the trail. Can鈥檛 fix your electronic ignition. And my goodness, the hours a Luddite could spend maintaining the perfect timing. Makes no sense to me but to each thier own. I have actually been paid to restore points ignition on Airheads. Both times I also got paid later to re install electronic ignition. Really not that satisfying was the response.
 

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Oh yeah. Amazing how many reviews you read about VAN Van and a lack of off road ability. but none based on Riding. The BIKE. All just opinions based on 鈥渢he look鈥 in a picture. as intelligent as going back to points as a way o evaluate a motorbike. I love everyone and can be friends with Luddites but have to question thier judgement.
 

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EFI is the way forward, yet we embrace the TW simply because of its simplicity 鈥 a two valve thumper that can take you anywhere, and 99% of the time, take you back again

Once upon a time, I had a Suzi GT550K triple two-stroke for about six years 鈥 three sets of points, three capacitors, three carbs 鈥 and a swinging arm made out of rubber. We fought each other through many campaigns, and both of us came out of it grinning. That was how it was back then, cantankerous curmudgeonly bikes, and a rider to match. That bike had 鈥渟oul鈥, and once you understood that, you became part of it

How many times have we heard of CDI faults on here ? 鈥 and the associated costs of both diagnostic and replacement ?

Almost as many times as 鈥済ummed up鈥 carb threads I guess, but will those carb threads disappear with EFI ? 鈥 or will they simply mutate into 鈥済ummed up EFI鈥 ? 鈥 equally hard to diagnose correctly, and with the costs of associated swapping out of parts to fix it

Progress aside, there are only two reasons to have a bike such as the 30 year old design of the TW with EFI 鈥 emissions, and convenience

Slide vs CV, no contest 鈥 slide every time. Same thing with EFI 鈥 sometimes it鈥檚 not about 鈥減racticality and convenience鈥 鈥 it鈥檚 about 鈥渟oul鈥

This isn鈥檛 just about any old bike, it鈥檚 about the TW 鈥 your TW. You are the only one who understands it, knows what it needs, and how to get the best out of it. You accept that if it fails, you have both failed 鈥 man and machine together as one

As capable as the VanVan is, the thing is like a quartz watch 鈥 run it until it stops, and then take it to the dealer for a new battery 鈥 no 鈥渟oul鈥

As an example of the perfection of design, fuel efficiency et al 鈥 the VanVan is up there with the best 鈥 while in reality, all it ended up being, is a beach bike that failed. Run it for five years or so, and move on. As ironic as it may seem, few of us want a small bore two valve thumper that doesn鈥檛 involve the rider further than chucking fuel into the thing, and spitting on the chain occasionally. We might think that would be heaven, but the truth is, we would be bored shitless

Like a rider taking a horse up a trail, you learn each other, and trust each other

You get that with the TW 鈥 you don鈥檛 get that with the VanVan 鈥 鈥渘o soul鈥 鈥︹
 

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I think the Van Van people were reading the TW site seeing what many liked, FI, softer seat, round headlight and an oil cooler. Even though people had mentioned those things they weren't willing to jump ship. Now if they had read some of the other posts and put a 250 in it with a kickstarter I think they might have gotten a lot more people to jump ship.
 

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Fuel injection far more reliable than carbs and don鈥檛 require l鈥漷weaking鈥 That鈥檚 just a simple fact. Some folks like to fuss on theys rides. Some prefer to ride. Do Luddites also install points ignition systems? Now there鈥檚 something you can fix on the trail. Can鈥檛 fix your electronic ignition. And my goodness, the hours a Luddite could spend maintaining the perfect timing. Makes no sense to me but to each thier own. I have actually been paid to restore points ignition on Airheads. Both times I also got paid later to re install electronic ignition. Really not that satisfying was the response.
I have had a few, maybe a handful, electronic ignitions simply crap out on me. I'd certainly like to have points on my DR - they aren't a problem if you can work on them...successfully. The ones who constantly fiddle with stuff, instead of just riding, may not fully understand what they're doing; I know because I fiddled too until I understood what was actually going on. Once I have my carbed bikes set up I'm done fiddling or even tweaking (with the exception of tightening up a pilot screw to deal with much higher elevation). Once my bikes with points or a mag are set up, I'm done with those too. They are much easier to diagnose rather than having to troubleshoot every other electrical item to rule out everything but the black box.
I won't dispute the convenience of EFI or electronic ignitions; I like the idea of being able to hop my R1 at any track in any conditions and not have to think about jetting. However, if I have an EFI problem, my day is done. I tend to agree with Purple, especially the way he spoke about the old triple.
The thrust of my post was that some of us are Luddites, and understand that some are not, which is fine. Perhaps optimistic nihilist is a better descriptor.
I actually liked the Van Van. Looking forward to finding a used one, perhaps, even with its superfluous tech :)
 
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