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I won't characterize other peoples opinions and motives...simply offer mine....that was the question of the thread...." Where do you stand....." this is where I stand

I only mention my occupation/academic background as context to explain the prism that I use see the world ….I am no expert on climate....but I trust the experts that are......
 

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The debate about negative affects of mankind on the planet has been ongoing since before I was a child. Imminent planetary nuclear holocaust, population explosion, energy crisis, ocean ecology, pollution, genocide, sustainability, resource depletion, and now climate change have all dominated the western world consciousness at times. This logically triggers discussions of "We must do something!".
Problem is if we Americans can try to do our part, abandon the benefits & liabilities of the Industrial Revolution and live sustainably how do we convince the rest of the world to follow our sacrifice?
 

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I think about it like this: A meteor could crash into the earth at any moment. The earth has been through WAY WAY worse crap than we could ever do. The earth will be here long after we humans have vanished and some other creature has evolved. We should do what we can to have a good time... while we can. Don't deliberately do harm to fellow creatures. Ride a TW that runs on organic hydro carbons until the meteor gets here. ;)
 

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If we got rid of gangs, and dope fiends that would cut down on part of the problem. What do you think 10percent of the population would be a good start.
 

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I don't believe in global warming but I do believe in climate change. If everywhere was getting warmer why are we getting colder weather in many areas? We dropped a plant heartiness zone in Houston this year (colder now) from a 10 years ago to a 9A now and estimated to soon be at zone 8. If an asteroid hits the earth it will send up possible dust blocking sunlight and it will get colder. If Yellowstone blows and throws up debris it will get colder. Yes the poles are melting but other areas are getting colder, climate change.
 

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I think about it like this: A meteor could crash into the earth at any moment. The earth has been through WAY WAY worse crap than we could ever do. The earth will be here long after we humans have vanished and some other creature has evolved. We should do what we can to have a good time... while we can. Don't deliberately do harm to fellow creatures. Ride a TW that runs on organic hydro carbons until the meteor gets here. ;)
I have stood back waiting for someone to bring up the "Doomsday Scenario". There are a vast number of Catastrophic events that could happen at any time and put an end to all of these types of discussions. What Smitty said in post 43 is about the most I can fully agree with from all the other posts including my own. I live in a rather pristine part of New York state that has a lot of natural beauty all around me yet I see idiots come to enjoy these great places and leave garbage and pollution in their wakes. Wish they would all bring their mothers along to pick up after them but that's never going to stop it. I do like wind, hydro and solar power but we must remember that for every action there remains and equal and opposite reaction. Dependable energy is the necessity of life and without clean water and air we will all be dead much sooner than later. Just do your best while you are here for the short time we each get and don't worry to much about what comes after you. It could all end in a flash today. Don't believe for one minute that any of the so called Scientists know any of the answers because scientific experiments have proven numerous times to be failures. I am not saying don't try, just don't get your panties in a wad over any of this. None of us are willing to go back in time to live off the grid with nothing but hardships and hard work and if we were we damn sure would not be discussing any of this stuff from our computers and devices.

GaryL
 

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The Luddites are developing a machine to stop science and destroy advances in technology....:)

I doubt we are entering another Dark Age. I suspect that current technology will be replaced by better technology ….more efficient.....more productive....more precise … more dependable..... more intuitive....more affordable ….less damaging to the environment ….
 

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Self driving "Autonomous" vehicles IMO are a complete waste of time and effort. If that makes me a "Luddite" then I will wear it proudly.

GaryL
 

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I won't characterize other peoples opinions and motives...simply offer mine....that was the question of the thread...." Where do you stand....." this is where I stand

I only mention my occupation/academic background as context to explain the prism that I use see the world ….I am no expert on climate....but I trust the experts that are......
The experts have been incorrect on all of their predictions so they aren't really experts. Also there is no degree in climatology....actually they do have them now and if you read the curriculum you'll see it's just a bogus degree of a hodge podge of introductory classes and nonsense on sustainability which no one can even define. The amount of warming we have had isn't statistically significant and is doing nothing but HELPING the planet by GREENING the planet. Crops are BUMPER. In fact, it's a terrible time to have timber land in the south. We are up to our eyeballs in trees. CO2 isn't a pollutant.

However, particulates are another matter. We can certainly do more work on removing much of that from our atmosphere. BUT again, having grown up in Brasil and traveled extensively I can tell you for a fact, America is the cleanest country on the PLANET by a HUGE margin so the rest of the world needs to play catch up.
 

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The experts have been incorrect on all of their predictions so they aren't really experts. Also there is no degree in climatology....actually they do have them now and if you read the curriculum you'll see it's just a bogus degree of a hodge podge of introductory classes and nonsense on sustainability which no one can even define. The amount of warming we have had isn't statistically significant and is doing nothing but HELPING the planet by GREENING the planet. Crops are BUMPER. In fact, it's a terrible time to have timber land in the south. We are up to our eyeballs in trees. CO2 isn't a pollutant.

However, particulates are another matter. We can certainly do more work on removing much of that from our atmosphere. BUT again, having grown up in Brasil and traveled extensively I can tell you for a fact, America is the cleanest country on the PLANET by a HUGE margin so the rest of the world needs to play catch up.
Actually the US appears cleaner but that's because most of the industry has been outsourced but still reaps many of the benefits. If Trump actually brings these jobs back to the US that might change.
 

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Actually the US appears cleaner but that's because most of the industry has been outsourced but still reaps many of the benefits. If Trump actually brings these jobs back to the US that might change.
You are touching on one of my pet peeves. The common reason why industry moved off our shores is stated as cheaper labor which is true but only half of the truth. Regulations on pollution put in place by the EPA has as much if not more to do with it. It is extremely expensive to manufacture in the USA if the process uses chemical or air pollutants. We actually chased thousands of companies off our shores and told them to go destroy other countries air, lands and waters and those other countries gladly accepted them. Sure that labor here in the USA is a lot more expensive but the processes used to manufacture lots of things is filthy dirty to our environment. Wind turbines cost as much to make as they ever produce back in electricity over their entire life span when you consider all things that it takes to build them, raw material mining, labor, transportation to the factories and final resting place and this makes no mention of the birds and raptors that get killed flying through them. Hydro power generation means damming up rivers which destroys the ecology of those rivers and haults the natural fishes running up stream to spawn. Solar is great but quite costly and when the sun does not shine the power is unreliable unless you have banks of nasty and very expensive batteries. We pay dearly for the electric power from the poles by the KWH. My neighbor has a full solar array and when he produces more than he can use the power company pays him for the excess but at pennies to the dollar from what they charge and then the state taxes him for the tiny payment he gets back from the power company as income. His solar system has been in place for 7 years and has not even come close to paying for itself yet and if any of the panels burn out prematurely it never will save him a dime.

GaryL
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Solar panels here are (or where) subsidised to make it financially viable – which I can see working in “sunnier climes”, but perhaps not here. Take that subsidy away, and over a ten year period, you just about break even. Then there’s the manufacturing cost (China), and the inevitable recycling cost – transportation and installation/removal just about flattens out the advantages

Same goes for wind turbines – for 240k I can get 24k per year from a medium sized one. Build costs, transport costs, installation costs, servicing costs, ten year life span – I’d get more from scrapping the thing

And please, don’t get me started on electric cars …..

But the fact is, that these are, to an extent, fledgling industries based on evolving technology. The first computers were large and expensive, for what you can now exceed on your mobile phone. It has to start somewhere, and the first gens will always be more expensive. Battery technology is better than it was ten years ago, and generating systems are also improving. They are now looking at home storage solutions for some of that electricity, with “home power banks” starting to evolve

As industry finds consumers willing to pay for these systems, they will constantly strive to produce “better” systems in order to maintain position in the market, and in a capitalist society, that works for everyone. To consume “less power”, whether it be in the manufacturing process or in the home, means less financial outlay. Take LED domestic lighting for instance: A 5W LED is equivalent to a 60W filament. How many lights are on in your house. The “first gen” LED’s cost “a lot”, but the price is constantly dropping as the market trend increases. This not only saves you money, it’s less strain on the grid – everybody wins

But “pioneering” technology is expensive, at least for early users/buyers. What seems impractically expensive now, paves the way for investment, and with that investment, comes better more efficient systems

So, as much as I would like to complain about the costs of wind turbines, solar panels, and electric cars, I just have to accept that as the price this generation has to pay in order for future generations to get off the ground – and that will improve with every generation

What concerns me, is the balance between polluting the planet while we strive to be better, and whether that will be recoverable in time

China seems to have “developed an environmental conscience” recently, but it’s still hard to control in such a large country. But there’s always India, and entire swathes of Africa waiting in the wings

The war for the planets survival is far from being played out yet …..
 

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Yeah global trade has made it so a few countries do a planets worth of polluting and the rest of the world benefits with cleaner environments and cheaper product but the pollution is all still happening except North America for example don't have to see it anymore.

People in China are shown wearing masks in Avian Flu or SARS related media stories yet the real reason they wear masks is the air pollution. In Japan people wear them in consideration of others to not spread their cold/flu.
 

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And this all boils down to one common denominator. What is a human life worth in the country you live in? The value here in the USA is much greater than that in Asia, the middle east and Africa and that all has to do with population numbers Vs the ability to support the masses. People from south America are invading north America for one reason and one reason only, life is better here. People from all over this world want to immigrate to the USA for the same reason. That begs for the answer to this simple question, WHY? Could it possibly be that the USA and the Constitution set forth by our founding fathers has produced the greatest and wealthiest country on this entire planet? Being number one is a certain guaranty that all lesser countries have their guns pointed at you. It is also a guaranty that those not looking to fight would prefer to just be here.

GaryL
 

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And this all boils down to one common denominator. What is a human life worth in the country you live in? The value here in the USA is much greater than that in Asia, the middle east and Africa and that all has to do with population numbers Vs the ability to support the masses. People from south America are invading north America for one reason and one reason only, life is better here. People from all over this world want to immigrate to the USA for the same reason. That begs for the answer to this simple question, WHY? Could it possibly be that the USA and the Constitution set forth by our founding fathers has produced the greatest and wealthiest country on this entire planet? Being number one is a certain guaranty that all lesser countries have their guns pointed at you. It is also a guaranty that those not looking to fight would prefer to just be here.

GaryL
The weird thing is the trillions of dollars in US national debt yet still one of the top countries for quality of life.....must be doing something to appease the global bankers. The US has largely been reduced to a nation whose global trade contribution is a large consumer base. I think Trudeau is appeasing them here now by increasing our national debt on reckless infrastructure "investment". Most of what we do is rip and ship raw materials like England intended when we were first colonized.
 

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There was a time that people argued the ozone hole wasn't man made. Thanks to CFC restrictions it's well on it's way to recovery.

NASA
 
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